Schwartz v. Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

There seems to be some doubt cast upon Fannys remarks, and they have also been misrepresented, but Fanny stated she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 1am, and that from 12:50 until just after 1am she was at her door continuously.

I suggest that people remember that Fanny is the only witness from 12:45 to 1am that has verification of her remarks, in the form of her sighting of Leon Goldstein. She also said "If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him". Sounds fairly certain of that fact to me, and I for one, it seems, see no reason at all to doubt the accuracy of Fanny Mortimer.

Again, as I pointed out mant times, the sequence as described by Louis does not work out when you consider that the fixed point in time is Blackwell at the site by 1:16. How long would be a reasonable amount of time to notify Blackwell, have him dress and then take a carriage to the location....10-15 minutes? At best? That means the initial discovery, running indoors, summoning help, sending out Issac and then leaving with Issac[s] and, then Eagle leaving, all search parties then returning, summoning the medical personelle and additional cops, waiting for their arrival, all to be completed by 1:05 at the latest, to meet the line in the sand time of Blackwell and his watch.

If Louis arrived after 1,.......( unless he arrived before 12:50, either must be the case since a street watching witness is verified as having been watching from 12:50 until 1am and seen nothing... and then hearing a cart and horse from inside, after 1am), between 1:01 and 1:02, then all that activity must be completed by 1:05. Defies Physics, and therefore is Impossible.

People keep moving witnesses times back and forth to support whatever their own beliefs are, Im just using the fixed times, (12:50-1am/Blackwell at 1:16) and the witness rough timings to determine what is possible and what isn't.

Try not moving the goal line to suit a predetermined outcome, and see what the real score is.

[Michael W Richards]

Fanny Mortimer hardly comes across as an inspiring witness and, perhaps not surprisingly, was not called to give evidence at the inquest. Thus, despite claiming to be "standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock,", she missed seeing Charles Letchford, PC Smith, Joseph Lave, Morris Eagle, the couple seen by PC Smith, Israel Schwartz, Liz Stride, and Stride's murderer.

Although I agree that Dr Blackwell's timing is important, we are not entitled to assume that his watch would have been perfectly synchronized with the clock observed by Diemshutz. In fact, in all probability it wouldn't have been.

That paragraph in bold is strictly your opinion John, in fact its equally probable at this point in time that she didn't see them because their stories were incorrect or lies...and there is no evidence known that compels us to discard Fannys remarks. And she did see the young couple. Who its probable Brown also saw.

As for synchronized timepieces, the man wearing the watch wins without issue. The guy who guesses his arrival based on a time he saw on a neighbourhood clock isn't the foundation for a time establishment. A man taking the time from the watch he is wearing to note the time and place he arrived at a crime scene is far more credible.

What Diemshitz said about the clock and his time is already proven to be incorrect anyway, he did not arrive at 1 exactly as he said at the Inquest bcause Fanny would have seen him.

Perhaps its important to remember how bizarre this inquest was, as to who was called, what stories were entered...ie Mary Malcolm, when they already knew the victim was not her sister....Wess speaking Ist, when he had left the scene at least 16 minutes before the earliest cut time and could have nothing of importance to add to the investigation. Eagle not being sure if a body was there at 12:40am, Israels complete absence, ....etc.

5 people vs 1 employee about the time....and I have to argue which should be considered more strongly? I guess you folks like the underdogs...I prefer a sure bet myself.

[John G]

That paragraph in bold is strictly your opinion John, in fact its equally probable at this point in time that she didn't see them because their stories were incorrect or lies...and there is no evidence known that compels us to discard Fannys remarks. And she did see the young couple. Who its probable Brown also saw.

As for synchronized timepieces, the man wearing the watch wins without issue. The guy who guesses his arrival based on a time he saw on a neighbourhood clock isn't the foundation for a time establishment. A man taking the time from the watch he is wearing to note the time and place he arrived at a crime scene is far more credible.

What Diemshitz said about the clock and his time is already proven to be incorrect anyway, he did not arrive at 1 exactly as he said at the Inquest bcause Fanny would have seen him.

Perhaps its important to remember how bizarre this inquest was, as to who was called, what stories were entered...ie Mary Malcolm, when they already knew the victim was not her sister....Wess speaking Ist, when he had left the scene at least 16 minutes before the earliest cut time and could have nothing of importance to add to the investigation. Eagle not being sure if a body was there at 12:40am, Israels complete absence, ....etc.

5 people vs 1 employee about the time....and I have to argue which should be considered more strongly? I guess you folks like the underdogs...I prefer a sure bet myself.

Fanny Mortimer did not attend the inquest so we are dependent on conflicting newspaper accounts. In one account, where she isn't named, she's credited with saying that she'd been standing at her door for about 10 minutes, before going inside and hearing a pony and cart pass 4 or 5 minutes later. However, in a later press account, where she is named, she's credited with saying they she'd been at her door for virtually the entire period between 12:30 and 1:00am: see Daily News, 1 October, 1888.
Clearly, therefore, Mortimer cannot be regarded as a reliable witness.

As noted in my earlier post, PC Lamb arrived at the scene around 1:04 to 1:06 (based upon Dr Blackwell's timing.) Louis states it took about 7 minutes from the discovery of the body to the arrival of the first officer (Gavin's excellent analysis suggests it could have been a shorter time frame), indicating that he discovered the body between 12:57 and 12:59. Although he himself suggests 1:00 am, the slight discrepancy is not important, as the clock that Louis relied on may not have been synchronized with Dr Blackwell's watch, i.e. it may have been running a couple of minutes faster.

This scenario also fits in with PC Lamb's evidence. He says it was around 1:00 am when he was notified by club members ( he didn't have a watch), but it was probably a few minutes later, as he was at the scene at about 1:05.

[John G]

There seems to be some doubt cast upon Fannys remarks, and they have also been misrepresented, but Fanny stated she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 1am, and that from 12:50 until just after 1am she was at her door continuously.

I suggest that people remember that Fanny is the only witness from 12:45 to 1am that has verification of her remarks, in the form of her sighting of Leon Goldstein. She also said "If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him". Sounds fairly certain of that fact to me, and I for one, it seems, see no reason at all to doubt the accuracy of Fanny Mortimer.

Again, as I pointed out mant times, the sequence as described by Louis does not work out when you consider that the fixed point in time is Blackwell at the site by 1:16. How long would be a reasonable amount of time to notify Blackwell, have him dress and then take a carriage to the location....10-15 minutes? At best? That means the initial discovery, running indoors, summoning help, sending out Issac and then leaving with Issac[s] and, then Eagle leaving, all search parties then returning, summoning the medical personelle and additional cops, waiting for their arrival, all to be completed by 1:05 at the latest, to meet the line in the sand time of Blackwell and his watch.

If Louis arrived after 1,.......( unless he arrived before 12:50, either must be the case since a street watching witness is verified as having been watching from 12:50 until 1am and seen nothing... and then hearing a cart and horse from inside, after 1am), between 1:01 and 1:02, then all that activity must be completed by 1:05. Defies Physics, and therefore is Impossible.

People keep moving witnesses times back and forth to support whatever their own beliefs are, Im just using the fixed times, (12:50-1am/Blackwell at 1:16) and the witness rough timings to determine what is possible and what isn't.

Try not moving the goal line to suit a predetermined outcome, and see what the real score is.

I'm not sure I understand the Dr Blackwell reference. He wasn't notified by club members but by a constable, presumably the one sent by PC Lamb. He states at the inquest that this was 1:10, and he sent his assistant on ahead. The assistant arrived 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell, so around 1:12 to 1:13.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not sure I understand the Dr Blackwell reference. He wasn't notified by club members but by a constable, presumably the one sent by PC Lamb. He states at the inquest that this was 1:10, and he sent his assistant on ahead. The assistant arrived 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell, so around 1:12 to 1:13.

Hi John,

No, I wasnt saying that club members were the source of the information, I was saying that his arrival time is a fixed point in time, due to the fact that he referred to his watch as he arrived. My point was that if you calculate the time Louis likely actually arrived, then add all that transpires before Blackwell arrives, it doesn't work out. If Louis arrived after 1, more like 1:02 then there are roughly 14 minutes for Louis to do everything he says including looking for help and then returning. If he arrived before 1am, then it was before 12:50, because we have a witness at her door from 12:50 until 1am continuously, and she saw no-one.

[Michael W Richards]

This scenario also fits in with PC Lamb's evidence. He says it was around 1:00am when he was notified by club members ( he didn't have a watch), but it was probably a few minutes later, as he was at the scene at about 1:05.

Actually that's incorrect. Lamb stated at the Inquest, and I quote:"Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder."

This is the problem with this murder, no-one sticks to what was stated and instead defers to assuming times that fit their own comfort zone for whatever projected answers this information provides. People want to believe Louis, so they fidget with the times provided and then say he was probably correct. We know, for a fact, that he wasn't accurate about his arrival time. Fanny was at her door until, again, using what she said,...no assuming this clock was accurate, this one wasn't, this one must have guessed wrong about the time..they were off by 2-3-5 minutes....Ive seen them all.

All the justifications for ignoring what the witnesses actually said in favour of assuming errors on clock or times provided. I can tell you this, if you review from 12:30 until 1am and mark all the salient sightings as they were given, with the times and activities that were given for them, then you do not have a cohesive story. Lave and Eagle standing at the gates at6 the same time and not seeing each other is one example. Sure, its easy to imagine one was off by a few minutes, but which one, and why would we believe the one we choose?

All witnesses affiliated with the club in an employment scenario knew that IF the police believed a club member killed Liz, that club would be shut and their paychecks would end. That's Wess, Louis, Eagle, and perhaps Lave. They knew the police and the neighbours would be happy to see that happen...this club had a bad reputation.

[John G]

Actually that's incorrect. Lamb stated at the Inquest, and I quote:"Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder."

This is the problem with this murder, no-one sticks to what was stated and instead defers to assuming times that fit their own comfort zone for whatever projected answers this information provides. People want to believe Louis, so they fidget with the times provided and then say he was probably correct. We know, for a fact, that he wasn't accurate about his arrival time. Fanny was at her door until, again, using what she said,...no assuming this clock was accurate, this one wasn't, this one must have guessed wrong about the time..they were off by 2-3-5 minutes....Ive seen them all.

All the justifications for ignoring what the witnesses actually said in favour of assuming errors on clock or times provided. I can tell you this, if you review from 12:30 until 1am and mark all the salient sightings as they were given, with the times and activities that were given for them, then you do not have a cohesive story. Lave and Eagle standing at the gates at6 the same time and not seeing each other is one example. Sure, its easy to imagine one was off by a few minutes, but which one, and why would we believe the one we choose?

All witnesses affiliated with the club in an employment scenario knew that IF the police believed a club member killed Liz, that club would be shut and their paychecks would end. That's Wess, Louis, Eagle, and perhaps Lave. They knew the police and the neighbours would be happy to see that happen...this club had a bad reputation.

Hello Michael,

As I've noted before PC Lamb was estimating the time because he didn't have a watch. He also estimated that the doctor arrived 10-12 minutes after his arrival, suggesting that he was at Dutfield's Yard at about 1:05.

Louis states that it was about 7 minutes from the time he discovered the body to the arrival of the first police officer, but Gavin's analysis indicates that it could have been between 4.5 and 7.5 minutes, which is perfectly consistent with Louis finding the body at about 1:00am-particularly as the clock could have been running slightly faster than Dr Blackwell's watch, I.e. it could have been showing a time of, say, 1:18 when Dr Blackwell's watch read 1:16.

Could you comment on what part of Gavin's analysis, i.e as to timings, you disagree with?

By the way, Louis didnt actually say that the clock was showing 1:00am. He stated at the inquest that he "returned exactly at o'clock on Sunday morning" and "I noticed the time at the Baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street."

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again John,

As I've noted before PC Lamb was estimating the time because he didn't have a watch. He also estimated that the doctor arrived 10-12 minutes after his arrival, suggesting that he was at Dutfield's Yard at about 1:05.

When we have the PC saying in his own words he was summoned before 1am at the Inquest, why then is there some need to discredit his remarks? We know the answer don't we...because that doesn't agree with timing by other witnesses that for some bizarre reason are given more credibility than non-club members like Fanny and Spooner. Why wasn't he mistaken about how long he was in the passage before Johnston arrived. And since I bring up Johnston, he wasn't alerted to the body until "a few minutes past one o'clock", its probable then that he wasn't onsite until at least 1:10am. He said he preceded Blackwell there by a few minutes.

Louis states that it was about 7 minutes from the time he discovered the body to the arrival of the first police officer, but Gavin's analysis indicates that it could have been between 4.5 and 7.5 minutes, which is perfectly consistent with Louis finding the body at about 1:00am-particularly as the clock could have been running slightly faster than Dr Blackwell's watch, I.e. it could have been showing a time of, say, 1:18 when Dr Blackwell's watch read 1:16.

So...Louis gets off his pony, checks the dead woman by candle, runs inside to look for his wife, summons a few members down, plans with Eagle to go out for help, sends Issac K for help, leaves himself with Issac[s] as Eagle leaves in the other direction, Louis gets as far as Grove Street and then returns, Eagle arrives with the police and Issac K who sees him arrive, and this all happens in 7 minutes? Well, If he didn't arrive until after 1am, say 1:02-:03, and Lamb says he arrived 10 or 12 minutes before Blackwell, then there is something amiss here.

Could you comment on what part of Gavin's analysis, i.e as to timings, you disagree with?

I disagree that we mark the events by times provided to us by suspect sources without corroborative accounts, and suggest we use the witnesses that have corroboration and no club connection. They have no stake in the clubs outcome from this. I disagree that the 5 witnesses that say they were by the dead woman before 12:45 must have all been incorrect...I disagree with Louis arrival time because I have a witness who was there and did not see or hear anyone arrive at 1am.

By the way, Louis didnt actually say that the clock was showing 1:00am. He stated at the inquest that he "returned exactly at o'clock on Sunday morning" and "I noticed the time at the Baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street."

So, he guesses his arrival by that clock but still insists it was "exactly" 1am? How is that credible? We know for a fact, by virtue of Fanny, that he did not arrive at 1am, which means he arrived when she was not at her door, before 12:50, or after 1am. If its after, then then events that Louis and other club associates say happened have to be completed before Blackwell at 1:16, and before Johnston, 11-12 minutes earlier.

Im not saying anything that is not already in the evidence, but I am saying that people pick the wrong horses to trust here, because their stories and times don't add up.

Try using PC Smith, Fanny, the 5 witnesses that said they were by the body before 12:45, Lamb, then Johnston and then Blackwell. Then mark their timelines. You can fix Fanny from 12:50-1am, and you can fix Blackwell at 1:16.

[c.d.]

"All witnesses affiliated with the club in an employment scenario knew that IF the police believed a club member killed Liz, that club would be shut and their paychecks would end. That's Wess, Louis, Eagle, and perhaps Lave. They knew the police and the neighbours would be happy to see that happen...this club had a bad reputation."

Hello Michael,

Just because the club members might have had a reason to lie doesn't NECESSARILY mean that they did. It is not automatically a given.

Nowhere in Fanny Mortimer's statement does she give any justification for her time estimates such as referencing a glance at the clock. You keep ignoring her use of the word "nearly" as a qualifier for the time she spent at the door. You also never mention her sick husband and I believe it is the five kids that she had. It is not hard to imagine that they might have been a distraction for a few minutes in which she might have missed what took place.

c.d.

[Rosella]

Surely everyone's times are just near approximations on that night, except for Dr Blackwell, who had a pocket watch. That includes Fanny Mortimer IMO. She probably had a clock somewhere in the house but that doesn't mean she was going inside consulting it every few minutes.

[Jeff Leahy]

There seems to be some doubt cast upon Fannys remarks, and they have also been misrepresented, but Fanny stated she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 1am, and that from 12:50 until just after 1am she was at her door continuously.

Happy New Year Michael

Actually Fanny didn't say this.... She said she was 'At her door for no more than ten minutes'

I do not know the context of that statement in 1888. But when I was bought up (And my family were from Chime surrey and Chadwell Heath London, I lived in Walthamstow) Ten minutes was a language generalisation. Simply used to indicate a short period of time. Its not used to indicate a specific or exact time... as in 'I'm popping to the shops back in ten minutes'

So i think you should be cautious assuming ten minutes is actually a specific rather than simply a general indication of being stood at the door 'no more than ten minutes'

I suggest that people remember that Fanny is the only witness from 12:45 to 1am that has verification of her remarks, in the form of her sighting of Leon Goldstein. She also said "If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him". Sounds fairly certain of that fact to me, and I for one, it seems, see no reason at all to doubt the accuracy of Fanny Mortimer.

Yes I agree. Fanny was stood close to the entrance and would have seen anyone coming or going. However her POV would not have aloud her to see inside the yard. So if Stride was lying there dying while she was stood at her door she could not have seen her even though see was a matter of feet from the body.

Again, as I pointed out mant times, the sequence as described by Louis does not work out when you consider that the fixed point in time is Blackwell at the site by 1:16. How long would be a reasonable amount of time to notify Blackwell, have him dress and then take a carriage to the location....10-15 minutes? At best? That means the initial discovery, running indoors, summoning help, sending out Issac and then leaving with Issac[s] and, then Eagle leaving, all search parties then returning, summoning the medical personelle and additional cops, waiting for their arrival, all to be completed by 1:05 at the latest, to meet the line in the sand time of Blackwell and his watch.

I agree that the timing of Blackwells arrival seems tight. I guess the question is, if Deimshutz discovers the body at 1 am could Blackwell have been there in 16 minutes? Do we know exactly what Blackwells route was? Perhaps I could pace it out?

If Louis arrived after 1,.......( unless he arrived before 12:50, either must be the case since a street watching witness is verified as having been watching from 12:50 until 1am and seen nothing... and then hearing a cart and horse from inside, after 1am), between 1:01 and 1:02, then all that activity must be completed by 1:05. Defies Physics, and therefore is Impossible.

People keep moving witnesses times back and forth to support whatever their own beliefs are, Im just using the fixed times, (12:50-1am/Blackwell at 1:16) and the witness rough timings to determine what is possible and what isn't.

Try not moving the goal line to suit a predetermined outcome, and see what the real score is.

I don't think people keep moving times back and fourth. Its simply logical to allow for estimated times given, because when estimating people are never dead on, they tend to round things up and we simply have no way of knowing how accurate the clocks or watches were?

So allowing five minutes either way for everyones estimation is reasonable, the problem is that they then start to contradict each other as timing are tight.

So i don't think people are deliberately trying to bend the truth or facts, simply saying its reasonable that some of those witness could have been out by several minutes. The better witnesses for timings, as far as I can see, are those who had a watch like Blackwell and those who had sight of the clock at the top of Berner Street , who are Schwartz and Deimschutz

Regards Jeff

[John G]

Happy New Year Michael

Actually Fanny didn't say this.... She said she was 'At her door for no more than ten minutes'

I do not know the context of that statement in 1888. But when I was bought up (And my family were from Chime surrey and Chadwell Heath London, I lived in Walthamstow) Ten minutes was a language generalisation. Simply used to indicate a short period of time. Its not used to indicate a specific or exact time... as in 'I'm popping to the shops back in ten minutes'

So i think you should be cautious assuming ten minutes is actually a specific rather than simply a general indication of being stood at the door 'no more than ten minutes'



Yes I agree. Fanny was stood close to the entrance and would have seen anyone coming or going. However her POV would not have aloud her to see inside the yard. So if Stride was lying there dying while she was stood at her door she could not have seen her even though see was a matter of feet from the body.



I agree that the timing of Blackwells arrival seems tight. I guess the question is, if Deimshutz discovers the body at 1 am could Blackwell have been there in 16 minutes? Do we know exactly what Blackwells route was? Perhaps I could pace it out?



I don't think people keep moving times back and fourth. Its simply logical to allow for estimated times given, because when estimating people are never dead on, they tend to round things up and we simply have no way of knowing how accurate the clocks or watches were?

So allowing five minutes either way for everyones estimation is reasonable, the problem is that they then start to contradict each other as timing are tight.

So i don't think people are deliberately trying to bend the truth or facts, simply saying its reasonable that some of those witness could have been out by several minutes. The better witnesses for timings, as far as I can see, are those who had a watch like Blackwell and those who had sight of the clock at the top of Berner Street , who are Schwartz and Deimschutz

Regards Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I think a more relevant question is whether PC Lamb could have arrived at around 1:05 [he estimated that he got to the scene between 10-12 minutes before Blackwell] if Diemschutz discovered the body at about 1:00am.

Gavin's excellent analysis certainly demonstrates that this is possible, if not probable. For instance, he estimated that it would only have taken PC Lamb 50 to 90 seconds to reach the scene of the crime from the time he was alerted, taking into account the brief time it would have taken to assess the men's story.

PC Lamb did say, during his testimony at the inquest, that he was notified "shortly before one o'clock", but this was clearly just a close approximation:at the inquest he stated: "Dr Blackwell was the first doctor to arrive; he came ten or twelve minutes after myself, but I had no watch with me."

[Michael W Richards]

I believe a prudent way to discern who should be given leeway when it comes to time accuracy is to factor in their exposure to a timepiece at that point in time. We KNOW Blackwell had a watch, we know that PC Smith and PC Lamb would be cognizant of the time due to their patrol schedules, we know that Heschberg and Gillen and Kozebrodski came out from inside the club where there certainly would have been a clock visible. We know that Fanny was in and out on her doorstep sporadically, and she gave specific times for when she was at her door continuously, which suggests that she made use of a timepiece when she was inside.

Now.....Eagle, Lave, Diemshitz and Schwartz guessed based on time sources that were minutes behind them.

[John G]

I believe a prudent way to discern who should be given leeway when it comes to time accuracy is to factor in their exposure to a timepiece at that point in time. We KNOW Blackwell had a watch, we know that PC Smith and PC Lamb would be cognizant of the time due to their patrol schedules, we know that Heschberg and Gillen and Kozebrodski came out from inside the club where there certainly would have been a clock visible. We know that Fanny was in and out on her doorstep sporadically, and she gave specific times for when she was at her door continuously, which suggests that she made use of a timepiece when she was inside.

Now.....Eagle, Lave, Diemshitz and Schwartz guessed based on time sources that were minutes behind them.

Hello Michael,

But it's not realistic to expect PC Lamb to know exactly what the time was, i.e. because he had no watch. Now I would agree that you would expect his time approximation to be reasonably accurate, but I see no problem with concluding that he could have been a few minutes out. Moreover, by his own estimates he arrived at Dutfield's Yard at around 1:05, so if that's accurate it doesn't seem very likely that he was notified of the murder "shortly before 1:00 am."

I also don't accept the logic that Kozebrodski et al would be aware of the exact time simply because there may have been a clock in the club. Eagle and Lave existed the club sometime after 12:30, but both were forced to estimate the time.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

But it's not realistic to expect PC Lamb to know exactly what the time was, i.e. because he had no watch. Now I would agree that you would expect his time approximation to be reasonably accurate, but I see no problem with concluding that he could have been a few minutes out. Moreover, by his own estimates he arrived at Dutfield's Yard at around 1:05, so if that's accurate it doesn't seem very likely that he was notified of the murder "shortly before 1:00 am."

I also don't accept the logic that Kozebrodski et al would be aware of the exact time simply because there may have been a clock in the club. Eagle and Lave existed the club sometime after 12:30, but both were forced to estimate the time.

Actually Issac took note of the time as he returned to the club "at half past 12", then he says about 10 minutes later Louis called him to the passageway. I find it interesting that some witnesses are assumed to be off in their time by a few minutes, but also that Issac K, Heschberg and Gillen were off by almost a half hour.