Schwartz v. Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

Many thanks for this information...

I also had in the back of my mind there were stables and had assumed the horse and cart were stabled here...

Do you have a reference to source for the George Yard stabling?

Someone jokingly suggested Deimsutz dumped the body...its not such a daft theory if the Horse and Cart weren't going home for the night as was suggested

Why would Deinsutz return from Market and not take the horse back to stable?

Thank you both

Jeff

Here is the quote from the London Times October 2nd, taken from Louis's deposition;

"The pony was not kept in the yard of the club, but in George-yard, Cable-street"

cheers

[Pcdunn]

Home to bed and stall...

Many thanks for this information...

I also had in the back of my mind there were stables and had assumed the horse and cart were stabled here...

Do you have a reference to source for the George Yard stabling?

Someone jokingly suggested Deimsutz dumped the body...its not such a daft theory if the Horse and Cart weren't going home for the night as was suggested

Why would Deinsutz return from Market and not take the horse back to stable?

Thank you both

Jeff

That is a good point. The account is simply that the "pony shied, and would not proceed further into the courtyard." I have seen a horse disturbed by the smell of blood when domestic rabbits were killed near his stall, so I feel confident that it was the blood scent that upset the pony, as much as the unfamiliar form on the ground inside the courtyard.

How far away was George Yard from Dutfield Yard? Could the peddler have been intending to unload his unsold stock at home (since it was his living), before taking the horse and cart over to the other place for stabling? Seems like a more innocent explanation than he was dumping a body.

[Michael W Richards]

That is a good point. The account is simply that the "pony shied, and would not proceed further into the courtyard." I have seen a horse disturbed by the smell of blood when domestic rabbits were killed near his stall, so I feel confident that it was the blood scent that upset the pony, as much as the unfamiliar form on the ground inside the courtyard.

How far away was George Yard from Dutfield Yard? Could the peddler have been intending to unload his unsold stock at home (since it was his living), before taking the horse and cart over to the other place for stabling? Seems like a more innocent explanation than he was dumping a body.

That is what Louis stated he was doing, you can find George Yard by looking at the maps...or check the Tabram info.

[Michael W Richards]

http://www.casebook.org/images//rippernotes/1888_map.jpg

Heres a link that shows where George Yard is on a local map

[Observer]

http://www.casebook.org/images//ripp...s/1888_map.jpg

Heres a link that shows where George Yard is on a local map

That's not the same George Yard. The George Yard in question is South of the club, South odf Mortimer's house, South down Berner Street in Cable Street. Mortimer said she heard the cart pass down the Street shortly after getting in doors for the final time. She could not have heard Deimshutz take his cart back to the stable, as it would not pass her house, but head in the opposite direction down Berner Street.

[Jeff Leahy]

That's not the same George Yard. The George Yard in question is South of the club, South odf Mortimer's house, South down Berner Street in Cable Street. Mortimer said she heard the cart pass down the Street shortly after getting in doors for the final time. She could not have heard Deimshutz take his cart back to the stable, as it would not pass her house, but head in the opposite direction down Berner Street.

Thanks for that info Observer

It still seems a little odd to me that Deimschtz returning from the market turned into Dutfield Yard when the horse was stabled in Cable street? Still a distance, which would suggest another motive for going into Dutfield Yard would it Not?

I still don't think it alters events, but it is curious observation Machael has made?

Yours jeff

[Observer]

No problem Jeff

It's as a previous poster has said, he dealt in cheap jewelery and trinkets. He was returning to the Club to deposit his mechandise there, then he would have stabled the horse in Cable Street.

Those witnessess who estimated that they had seen the body at 12:45, and thats all they are estimates, have been shown to be mistaken when one scrutinises the chain of events, and all of the witnesssess accounts are taken into consideration

John G, in a previous post demonstrated this.

Hope your partner is on the mend by the way.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

In short, there's no doubting the fact that Deimshutz was the first to discover the body, very shortly after 1 a.m.

[John G]

Thanks Observer, I agree. There's an interesting article by Gavin Bromley,"The Events Following the Discovery of Elizabeth Stride's Body", where Gavin undertakes an extremely thorough analysis of the chain of events, i.e. from the discovery of the body to the arrival of PC Lamb.

PC Lamb stated at the inquest that he arrived around 10-12 minutes prior to Dr Blackwell (unless he is getting him mixed up with his assistant, Mr Johnston, who arrived 3-4 minutes earlier.) Dr Blackwell checked his watch upon arrival, recording a time of 1:16, suggesting PC Lamb arrived at the murder scene between 1:04 and 1:06.

Considering various scenarios, Gavin estimates that police arrived on the scene between about 4 and a half and 7 and half minutes after the discovery of the body (Diemshutz estimated 7 minutes). This suggests Louis discovered the body sometime between 12:57 and 1:02. See:http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...l?printer=true (I would note that you need to scroll down in order to find the relevant part of Gavin's dissertation, which also includes an interesting analysis of PC Smith's beat.)

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi John and Observer

Yes an interesting analysis of PC Smiths beat.

Given the estimation by various witnesses I guess it could be possible that Smith passed after Eagle. I could see a scenario where the man seen by Smith follows him checking he has moved on and returns, being witnessed by Schwartz

But I'm of the opinion Schwartz didn't have a good look at BSM and thus could be describing the same man.

Given Observers observation about Deimschutz wears being more important than the horse welfare, I think it probable the horse was sent to stable at a later time and Fanny almost certainly heard the Horse and cart going towards Dutfield Yard.

That said I think Michael raises a fair possibility that Fanny could have heard the later with draw of the horse and cart... It just doesn't seem so probable to me given the commotion around the club.

But its always interesting when someone raises something I have not observed before so many thanks to you all, and a Happy New year to you all..My partner is still slow to mend but lets hope 2016 has her back on her feet and working on our new doc.yours Jeff

[John G]

Hi John and Observer

Yes an interesting analysis of PC Smiths beat.

Given the estimation by various witnesses I guess it could be possible that Smith passed after Eagle. I could see a scenario where the man seen by Smith follows him checking he has moved on and returns, being witnessed by Schwartz

But I'm of the opinion Schwartz didn't have a good look at BSM and thus could be describing the same man.

Given Observers observation about Deimschutz wears being more important than the horse welfare, I think it probable the horse was sent to stable at a later time and Fanny almost certainly heard the Horse and cart going towards Dutfield Yard.

That said I think Michael raises a fair possibility that Fanny could have heard the later with draw of the horse and cart... It just doesn't seem so probable to me given the commotion around the club.

But its always interesting when someone raises something I have not observed before so many thanks to you all, and a Happy New year to you all..My partner is still slow to mend but lets hope 2016 has her back on her feet and working on our new doc.yours Jeff

Hi Jeff

Yes, I thought Gavin's dissertation was an extremely thorough and well-researched piece of work. Interestingly, there was a discussion about police beats at Stride's Inquest:

Coroner: "When you were found what direction were you going in?

Constable Lamb: "I was coming towards Berner Street. A constable named Smith was on the Berner Street beat. He did not accompany me, but was the constable on fixed point duty between Grove Street and Christian Street in Commercial Road. Constables at fixed points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London."

Coroner: "I think this is important. The Hanbury Street murder was discovered just as the night police were going off duty."

Happy New Year to you and your partner, Jeff.

[Michael W Richards]

Allowance for time errors is a prudent approach, and when considering witnesses who had no source for the time, its almost mandatory.

That being said the estimate of Louis arrival at between 12:57-:58 and 1:02 doesn't work with the only proven witness to that time period. Fanny did not see or hear a cart pulled by a horseshoe clad pony on cobblestones just before, or at, 1am. She did hear a cart and pony after shortly after 1am. If that was the actual arrival time of Diemshitz, despite his contention it was "exactly" 1am...(he may have been caught in that "error" by the mere fact Fanny hears the sounds after the clock struck one)....then all one needs to do is review the sequence of events as laid out by Louis and see if they fit a schedule that is dictated by a senior medical staffs arrival, with a watch. Blackwell was already onsite by 1:16. Horse shies, climbs down, lights a match, heads inside for his wife, summons some people from inside, heads down to the body, a small crowd has gathered, Louis and Morris decide to split up and head for help, Louis heads out with someone named Issac[s] because Issac Kozebrodski says Louis sent him out alone for help, and that he met Eagle returning with the police on his way back.

By Fannys timing Louis cannot have entered the passageway before 1am, so if we are talking about an arrival at approx. 1:02 and then first police contact at around 1:10 on the street, how is it that Blackwell can be woken and alerted to the event, get out of bed, dressed, and carriage ride down to the passageway by 1:16am?
His time is fixed by his watch. It doesn't work. if you then argue Louis must have arrived a bit earlier then, you will butt heads with the only witness in this whole mess that has corroboration, specifically for what she said she saw, or didn't, between 12:50 and 1am.

Lamb said he was summoned before 1, Spooners story has him seeing Louis and Isaac[s] before 1am, Issac Kozebrodksi, Heschberg and Gillen say that they were alerted before 12:45....and Louis Diemshitz, club steward, says he arrived at exactly 1am, a claim that is directly refuted in Fannys statement. I also find it interesting that Heschberg doesn't even know Diemshitz by name.

[John G]

Fanny Mortimer hardly comes across as an inspiring witness and, perhaps not surprisingly, was not called to give evidence at the inquest. Thus, despite claiming to be "standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock,", she missed seeing Charles Letchford, PC Smith, Joseph Lave, Morris Eagle, the couple seen by PC Smith, Israel Schwartz, Liz Stride, and Stride's murderer.

Although I agree that Dr Blackwell's timing is important, we are not entitled to assume that his watch would have been perfectly synchronized with the clock observed by Diemshutz. In fact, in all probability it wouldn't have been.

[Michael W Richards]

Would the fact that Issac Kozebrodski said that within an hour of the discovery that he was sent out alone by specific request from Louis be important when considering that in Louis's statement there is no mention of that encounter at all?

If its a matter of dissecting the story elements to demonstrate that there are important errors and omissions in Louis story, then by all means review the data granularly. I have, and I can say that I cannot support stories from uncorroborated sources when they are directly contradicted by stories from witnesses we do have corroboration for.

Particularly when the uncorroborated witnesses are in danger of loss of wages depending on the perceptions of guilt by the authorities doing the questioning.

[Jeff Leahy]

Many thanks Jon, happy new year to you

I think your correct to be cautious of Fanny's timings they are estimates after all.... 'I was at my door for no more than 10 minutes' which contradicts the '30 minutes' which was probably an on and off suggestion coming to the door to listen to singing and observe the world going bye...

And Goudstien's timing is again rough not an exact timing...he passed through the street shortly before 1 am which could be early as say 12.54 or five.

So while I understand what Michael is saying, Blackwells arrival being swift, I don't think Fannys statements stop Deimscutz arriving at the club as he states 1 am.

Thats not to say Michael might Not be correct, just simply that on probability I'd hedge to 1 am and Strides death somewhere between 12.45 and 50

Yours Jeff