Packer and Schwartz

[lynn cates]

I D

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Actually, I was asking why Mac was not privy to the "ID."

Cheers.
LC

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Kozminski was born in Poland, arrived in England at 16, was 23 when the murders occurred, would have had strong Jewish features.

In the six years he was here, if he managed to master English at all, likely broken English, he would still have a very noticeable foreign accent.
Schwartz heard BS-man speak, but no mention of him sounding foreign.

There is just no way Schwartz is not going to know Kozminski/BS-man was not Jewish.

I disagree (not saying that the man was Jewish or not), it's really hard for someone who doesn't speak a language to make a distinction of accent in said language. Schwartz didn't speak English, he needed a translator when telling his tale.

[Wickerman]

....

Then who is the suspect?

Ah, the true answer to that question will not depend on what we know about the case, but rather, what Anderson/Swanson knew about the case.

[Wickerman]

Yes, Polish at best... I was born and grew up near the Polish border......

Hi Karsten.
What is missing today is the rigid class structure that the ordinary person was expected to reflect in his appearance a hundred years ago.
I dare say Poland in the late 19th century was no different to London, where a person was expected to reflect his true position and status in society in his attire and appearance, quite different to today where we follow what ever fashion we prefer.
The common citizen did not have the choices we have today.

[S.Brett]

And while having no photograph we do have photographs of near relatives which would suggest he was polish...dark curly hair and blue eyes

Yes, Polish at best... I was born and grew up near the Polish border (former GDR/federal province "Brandenburg")... I am a half Polish... when I look at the photographs of the "Kozminski" family they look like the people of my home region... when I look at the photographs of Matilda & Morris Lubnowski they could be member of my family and we are not Jewish... Matilda & Morris Lubnowski and me (and my family) it is more a mix between German/Polish... I can imagine, when Morris Lubnowski walked the streets of the East End, that people thought "Is he German or Polish?" In each case he might be Jewish... but "Foreigner" could mean German/Polish (Aaron Kozminski spoke German and Lipski is a common name in Germany&Poland).

And it is clear, for the Seaside Home witness (Jewish himself) with "a good view of the murderer" "Kosminski" did not look Jewish... "but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him" (Anderson)

For example Lawende, born in Warzaw/Poland. To me he looks like a German. And Major Smith (City Police) said "a sort of hybrid German", probably he meant Lawende.

Karsten.

[Abby Normal]

Kozminski was born in Poland, arrived in England at 16, was 23 when the murders occurred, would have had strong Jewish features.

In the six years he was here, if he managed to master English at all, likely broken English, he would still have a very noticeable foreign accent.
Schwartz heard BS-man speak, but no mention of him sounding foreign.

There is just no way Schwartz is not going to know Kozminski/BS-man was not Jewish.

I agree. But my question is this-if neither Schwartz or Lawendes is Anderson's witness then the suspect they saw (bs man and sailor man)can't be andersons suspect either.

Then who is the suspect?

[S.Brett]

You should be looking for the Police Seaside Home -- something connected to the police.

The New Scotland Yard -1890- Victoria Embankment with a view of the Thames?

When Scotland Yard moved from the Old Scotland Yard (Whitehall Place) to the Norman Shaw Buildings (New Scotland Yard), maybe, it was the running gag of Anderson and Swanson to name the Norman Shaw Building "Seaside Home"...

Did the City Police bring "Kosminski" from an (private) asylum in Surrey to The New Scotland Yard (MET Police) at the Thames where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification?

Sent by us= By the other police (City CID)?

I know it is crazy but impossible?

[Wickerman]

But after many posts and much discussion....Is that the general point of agreement?

It's just a small detail that gets overlooked. Neither BS-man nor the Lawende suspect were identified as, suspected to be, or described as Jewish. Whereas Kozminski could hardly be mistaken for being any thing else, but Jewish.
There's an inconsistency here Jeff.

In all my years of casebook thread watching it must surely be a first?

What, a "general point of agreement"? - he11 no, that will have to be stamped out before it goes viral.....

PS obviously from different view points but the same conclusion

Actually, that was not my intent, but it appears to be the case.
To my mind the lack of any hint of "Jewishness" associated with either suspect is a major inadequacy in both theories.
If it was theorized the suspect was a "sailor", then why not say "Jewish (or foreign) sailor", if that was the case?

Mrs Long was permitted to make that call ("he looked like a foreigner"), so why not Lawende or Schwartz?
Neither suspect did look "foreign" to the respective witness, that is the likely answer.

[Jeff Leahy]

Do we know what Kozminski looked like in Nov - March 1888? Yes Cox gives a clear description

And while having no photograph we do have photographs of near relatives which would suggest he was polish...dark curly hair and blue eyes

I think Karsten has provide the most interested research so far on the Jewish Convalescent Seaside Home as Anderson said the ID took place in an ASYLUM

Oh and just because it seems apparent that Lawende and Schwartsz failed to ID the suspect they saw...doesnt mean they didn't see Jack the Ripper

They either failed to connect the suspect because they had a **it view of the suspect or Kozminski possibly wasn't JtR

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick
so andersons witness was neither Schwartz nor lawende. Which means their suspects BS man and sailor man wasn't the suspect? So now we have an unnamed(unknown) suspect? is that what your saying?
soory-so confused.

also, is there any physical description of kosminisky? do we know what color his hair was?

Kozminski was born in Poland, arrived in England at 16, was 23 when the murders occurred, would have had strong Jewish features.

In the six years he was here, if he managed to master English at all, likely broken English, he would still have a very noticeable foreign accent.
Schwartz heard BS-man speak, but no mention of him sounding foreign.

There is just no way Schwartz is not going to know Kozminski/BS-man was not Jewish.

[Scott Nelson]

You should be looking for the Police Seaside Home -- something connected to the police.

[Abby Normal]

The Elephant in the room of course, from my point of view at least, is that the man seen by Lawende & Co., and described by him, then more fully by the police in an official release, make no mention nor the slightest hint that he was Jewish, or "foreign".

And the same goes for the suspect seen by Schwarts, neither Schwartz nor the police made the slightest hint that BS-man was Jewish.
And, given that the name "Lipski" was shouted at Schwartz, it is hardly likely that BS-man was Jewish, more especially that Schwartz in his detailed account would omit such a pertinent detail.

I don't think Anderson's witness was either of these men.

Hi Wick
so andersons witness was neither Schwartz nor lawende. Which means their suspects BS man and sailor man wasn't the suspect? So now we have an unnamed(unknown) suspect? is that what your saying?
soory-so confused.

also, is there any physical description of kosminisky? do we know what color his hair was?

[Jeff Leahy]

The Elephant in the room of course, from my point of view at least, is that the man seen by Lawende & Co., and described by him, then more fully by the police in an official release, make no mention nor the slightest hint that he was Jewish, or "foreign".

And the same goes for the suspect seen by Schwarts, neither Schwartz nor the police made the slightest hint that BS-man was Jewish.
And, given that the name "Lipski" was shouted at Schwartz, it is hardly likely that BS-man was Jewish, more especially that Schwartz in his detailed account would omit such a pertinent detail.

I don't think Anderson's witness was either of these men.

But after many posts and much discussion....Is that the general point of agreement?

In all my years of casebook thread watching it must surely be a first?

Yours Jeff

PS obviously from different view points but the same conclusion

[Wickerman]

The Elephant in the room of course, from my point of view at least, is that the man seen by Lawende & Co., and described by him, then more fully by the police in an official release, make no mention nor the slightest hint that he was Jewish, or "foreign".

And the same goes for the suspect seen by Schwarts, neither Schwartz nor the police made the slightest hint that BS-man was Jewish.
And, given that the name "Lipski" was shouted at Schwartz, it is hardly likely that BS-man was Jewish, more especially that Schwartz in his detailed account would omit such a pertinent detail.

I don't think Anderson's witness was either of these men.

[Abby Normal]

I'm not certain it is to bolster Kozminski as a suspect. Surely he already is a Prime Suspect as Rob House stated.

And the intention is to try and make sense of the Sources. Why Anderson, Swanson and Macnaughten appear to contradict each other.

I'm saying they don't contradict each other if you look at the conundrum from the correct point of view..

And interesting I don't appear to be the only ripperologist who has reached this place. Scot Nelson seems to be agreeing that Kozminski must have come to light early in the investigation...Aaron Kozminski not being the Kozminski of March 1889...

So some similarities to the reasoning/speculation being put froward by Karsten and myself...

We're simply arguing that the knowns about Aaron Kozminski are to closely a match to the knowns given by Swanson...so they must be one and the same

However we're speculating two separate events an early event upto March 1889 where Aaron enters a private Asylum

And a later event where his family seek assistance from the police almost two years later.

Two events one suspect explaining the apparent difference in what MacANughten states and what Anderson states

Whether that would make Kozminski a stronger suspect I'm not convinced

Given that it would rely on Lawende and Schwartz failing to ID kozminski in Nov 1888... It might be argued it makes him a weaker suspect because the case against him can't have been good at the time.

The second event is relying on his families suspicions (No different to Druit) and an ID two years after the event, by an unknown suspect who refused to testify

Yours jeff

thanks Jeff
appreciate the response. Again if any evidence can be found for the unknown witness used in the ID that would be a major accomplishment!