Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Actually, I was asking why Mac was not privy to the "ID."

Cheers.
LC

Because Anderson received the letter of introduction from Crawford not Manaughten...

So Macnaughten doesn't know about that meeting...

Anderson and Monroe decide on a course of action which is kept quiet because its a 'Hot Potatoe'

The ID is never updated into the March 1889 file but kept as a separate report, the only other person who might have known something as the City police kept surveillance is SMITH

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Such as Mac bringing Kosminski to light only to have Sir Robert jump at the theory?

Cheers.
LC

But we know Anderson starts his theory in 1892 'A maniac revealing in blood'

Macnaughten knows little about Kozminski, only the office rumours until he writes his memo and discovers the March 1889 file. Almost two years later 1894 when the Sun suggests Cutbush

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

But we don't know this was Kosminski.

Cheers.
LC

Its reasonable speculation given what Cox says

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

That is: Finding Aaron Kozminski in an East End Infirmary and in a (private) asylum in Surrey.

What we have: Aaron Kozminski in Mile End Old Town Workhouse (July 1890 and February 1891) and in Colney Hatch & Leavesden.

It seems that the Jewish Home in Stepney Green was a Jewish Workhouse and later it belonged to the Nightingale in Surrey. Later again we find the Jewish Hospital in Stepney Green.

And I could find another Asylum in Surrey with a Seaside Home (Royal Hospital for Neuro-Disability).

Nightingale:

“The charity’s origins can be traced back to 1840. The three original homes were called the Hand in Hand Asylum, the Widows’ Home Asylum and the Jewish Workhouse, also known as the Jewish Home. They were established in the old Jewish quarter in London’s East End to cater for the needs of poor Jewish people”

http://www.nightingalehammerson.org/about-us/the-history-of-nightingale-hammerson.html

“The Hand in Hand Home occupied the following premises: 5 Duke's Place (from 1843), 22 Jewry Street (from 1850), Wellclose Square (from 1854) and 23 Well Street, Hackney (from 1878). The Widow's Home was first based at 22 Mitre Street, then 19 Duke Street (from 1850), 67 Great Prescott Street, Goodmans Fields (from 1857) and later moved next door to the Hand in Hand in 1880.
The Jewish Workhouse was founded in 1871 by a movement led by Solomon Green, the son of Abraham Green one of the founders of the Widow's Home. The first premises were at 123 Wentworth Street. In 1876 the Home moved to 37-9 Stepney Green.”

http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=14761&inst_id=118

Surrey:

Nightingale
105 Nightingale Lane, Wandsworth Common, SW12 8NB/ Surrey

“…and the Jewish Workhouse, also known as the Jewish Home (1871), at 37-39 Stepney Green.”

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/nightingale.html

Royal Hospital for Neuro-Disability
West Hill, Putney, SW15 3SW/ Surrey

“In 1885 a holiday home - Seaside House - was established for the inmates (and later pensioners) in St Leonard's-on-Sea. (The house was sold in 1901.)” (106 Queen Victoria Street?)

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Wandsworth/

http://www.rhn.org.uk/about-us/history/

“In 1947 the Hospital was informed that it would be nationalised under the NHS Act (1946), along with the Jewish Hospital and Home for Incurables in Tottenham and the British Home and Hospital for Incurables in Streatham. All three homes appealed against this on the grounds that they would be able to provide more specific care to their patients, focussed on long-term needs. In 1950 the Ministry of Health withdrew its claim.”

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/royalhospitalhome.html

London/East End:

Jewish Home and Hospital for Incurables
295 High Road, South Tottenham, N15 4RT

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/jewishhospitalandhome.html

http://pmj.bmj.com/content/80/945/426.full

London Jewish Hospital
Stepney Green, Tower Hamlets, E1 3LB

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/londonjewish.html

In Mile End Road were two Jewish homes (1891):

Portuguese and Spanish Jew´s hospital between 251-255 Mile End Road.
Jewish Home (Samuel Shuter, supt.), 37-39 Stepney Green Mile End Road.

See my post 877:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=360458#post360458

I am not sure whether the "Seaside Home" belonged to an asylum or to the police or whether it was located at the coast. Maybe, it was plain and simple a police´s barrack in London called "Seaside Home", who knows...

But I am sure that the Police already known "Kosminski" in October 1888. In this case, I do not think that they were waiting with Lawende & Schwartz for an ID until the second half of 1890/ Beginning 1891.

"Oh no! ... I only had a short look at him" (Major Smith/probably Lawende) and "Would you know him again? - I doubt it. The man and woman were about nine or ten feet away from me."...

...does not sound like "A good view of the murderer"...

I guess that Schwartz and Lawende were confronted with "Kosminski" in October 1888 but failed.

A third witness found by the police in the second half of 1890? Why not? If "Kosminski" was a Prime Suspect since October 1888 then the police did not have the Seaside Home witness at the time of the murders. When they had found the witness the MET police informed the City Police to bring "Kosminski" to the place "Seaside Home". I guess, all the time "Kosminski" was more a City Police suspect than a MET Police suspect.

Yours Karsten.

Hi Karsten

Not ignoring this important post but still trying to sock it all in..

Just a quick observation...

Not only would a Jewish infirmary with a link to surrey be of interest but it must also have run on charitable status....

Its here that you might find your link to Crawford

Montigue was heavily involved in charitable work

However more interesting is that older jewish charities are more likely to have a connection to the Rothchilde family and the Rothchildes and Crawfords moved in the same social circles

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten

Not ignoring this important post but still trying to sock it all in..

Just a quick observation...

Not only would a Jewish infirmary with a link to surrey be of interest but it must also have run on charitable status....

Its here that you might find your link to Crawford

Montigue was heavily involved in charitable work

However more interesting is that older jewish charities are more likely to have a connection to the Rothchilde family and the Rothchildes and Crawfords moved in the same social circles

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I know very little about Crawford/Montagu & Co but I found this:

"Crawford"/Surrey;

"The Pauper Lunatic Asylum at Cane Hill, Coulsdon, 2 miles south of Purley station, was opened in January, 1884: the buildings, which adjoin the Brighton main road... Rev. John Charles Crawford M.A. chaplain;..."

I think this Charles Crawford had nothing to do with the Earl of Crawford...

The Crawford letter, Jeff, I guess it was already written in October 1888.

Daily News
United Kingdom
18 October 1888

"he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom he has been accused"

Aftonbladet (Sweden)

October 26th, 1888

"He has been reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with..."

The Bristol Mercury (Bristol)
29 December 1888

"The Dublin Express London correspondent on Thursday gave as the latest police theory concerning the Whitechapel murderer, that he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace, may have placed him out of harm's way in safe keeping..."

he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace

It is possible (and pure speculation) that this woman was Matilda Lubnowski (sister) or Golda Abrahams (mother). A family in great fear in October (November/December) 1888 when the brother was suspected of being Jack the Ripper (and not 1890).

Yours Karsten.

[S.Brett]

Specualtion: He was connected to the last murder Kelly...because know other murders of this kind took place after the Suspect...knew he was identified

I offer the following scenario:

"Kosminski" was a prime suspect in October 1888 after the Double Event and maybe he was admitted to an East End Infirmary with connections to a private asylum in Surrey (and again admitted end of November/beginning December 1888). In October 1888 Mrs. Long, Schwartz, PC Smith, Lawende and the PC near Mitre Square were confronted with "Kosminski". Only the Mitre Square PC said: This could be the man I saw!

Sims:

“The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack the Ripper in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.”

Macnaughten:

“This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square”.

"Kosminski" knew there was no witness who could identify him!

Swanson before the "Seaside Home" Identification took place:

"And after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London"

After Kelly? Yes! The last murder: "Kosminski" was seen by a witness in Miller`s Court (on leaving the court) and he knew that this witness (had a good view of him) could identify him. This witness would not fail like Schwartz, Lawende & Co.

Anderson:

and the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were low-class Jews....(End of 1888)...

The problem: The police did not find this important witness before the second half of 1890. He was probably unaware of the importance of his sighting.

Swanson about the "Seaside Home" Identification:

"after the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification, and he knew he was identified"

he knew he was identified

Yes, the police had found the witness with the "good view of the murderer".

Anderson:

and the result proved that our diagnosis was right on every point

Swanson about the pressmann:

known to the heads of SY

The same with the Seaside Home ID? Known to the heads of Scotland Yard? And I would not be surprised if the "Seaside Home" ID took place at the New Scotland Yard Building of 1890, located at the bank of the Thames.

I know it sounds weird...

[Abby Normal]

Ah, the true answer to that question will not depend on what we know about the case, but rather, what Anderson/Swanson knew about the case.

Hi wicker
well kosminsky is who they thought did it. but if neither Lawendes or Schwartz was the witness then neither is their suspect-salor man or BS man is the suspect.

so not only do we need to come up with another witness-we have to come up with another suspect that witness saw, no?

who is the unknown witness then and who is the unknown suspect? And when and where did this unknown suspect see his suspect?

[Jeff Leahy]

I know it sounds weird...

Hi Karsten

I think you'd have to prove a president that the New Scotland Yard' was ever jokingly called the Seaside Home

Besides Anderson says the ID took place in an Asylum so a convalescent Seaside home attached to the Surrey asylum makes more sense

And it seems in probable that the crawford letter incident happened before August 1889...Anderson at this time was still claiming they'd failed to bring proof against a suspect

Yours Jeff

PS you need to be careful with Crawford..its a title not the mans name, his real name was: James Ludovic Lindsay. These were pretty high ranking aristocrats... But both his sons did work in the east end doing charity. A number of the Rothchilde woman also did charity work here. Theres a good chance they were receiving money from the rothchildes who were jewish but not astkenazim...any info on who funded the infirmary would be useful

[Abby Normal]

Kozminski was the suspect

Surely you mean who was the witness?

What we know about the witness

He was a fellow Jew

He refused to testify when he learned the suspect was a fellow jew

He was the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer

Specualtion: He was connected to the last murder Kelly...because know other murders of this kind took place after the Suspect...knew he was identified

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff
yes of course, but what im trying to get at as with my exchange with Wicker, is if neither Schwartz or Lawende is the witness then the men they saw-BS man and sailor man-cant be the suspect.

so an unknown witness sees something and someone, presumably with one of the victims the night of the double event (or was it earlier-with an earlier victim?). If its not sailor man or BS man who is it? when did the unknown witness see the suspect? where did he see the suspect? what was taking place when the witness saw the suspect?

[S.Brett]

I think you'd have to prove a president that the New Scotland Yard' was ever jokingly called the Seaside Home

An idea in the heat of the moment... not important...

Besides Anderson says the ID took place in an Asylum so a convalescent Seaside home attached to the Surrey asylum makes more sense

As I always say... I think we agree...

PS you need to be careful with Crawford..its a title not the mans name, his real name was: James Ludovic Lindsay. These were pretty high ranking aristocrats... But both his sons did work in the east end doing charity. A number of the Rothchilde woman also did charity work here. Theres a good chance they were receiving money from the rothchildes who were jewish but not astkenazim...any info on who funded the infirmary would be useful

What a mistake... of course I know his name... sorry, as I wrote I know very little about Crawford/Montagu & Co...

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff
yes of course, but what im trying to get at as with my exchange with Wicker, is if neither Schwartz or Lawende is the witness then the men they saw-BS man and sailor man-cant be the suspect.

Ah I see...but disagree

All it means is that the witness, Long, Schwartz and Lawende were unable to identify the suspect..

None of them claimed they would be able to recognise the man again. They gave general descriptions...

So surely its quite possible they saw Kozminski but were unable to identify him?

so an unknown witness sees something and someone, presumably with one of the victims the night of the double event (or was it earlier-with an earlier victim?). If its not sailor man or BS man who is it? when did the unknown witness see the suspect? where did he see the suspect? what was taking place when the witness saw the suspect?

I don't know...

But surely that is what Karsten has been theorising? A possible witness at Millers Court?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

What a mistake... of course I know his name... sorry, as I wrote I know very little about Crawford/Montagu & Co...

Actually its more Catrins area of expertise.. So if you want any leads chasing up I'll put her to work..Please outline any infirmaries or institutions...she's only lying around on her back all day doing nothing

Yours Jx

[S.Brett]

Actually its more Catrins area of expertise.. So if you want any leads chasing up I'll put her to work..Please outline any infirmaries or institutions...she's only lying around on her back all day doing nothing

Yours Jx

Poor Cat... married with Jeff Leahy...

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/earlswood.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Earlswood_Hospital

"Reed, a well-known philanthropist, had been involved in various charitable foundations - the London Orphan Asylum, the Infant Orphan Asylum for fatherless children and the Royal Hospital for Incurables."

"Lord Palmerston, Baron Rothschild and Lord Ashley became officers of the charity."

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/royalhospitalhome.html

"Revd Dr Andrew Reed (1787-1862), was a practical philanthropist who had previously established the London Orphan Asylum (1813), the Infant Orphan Asylum (1827), the Asylum for Fatherless Children (later renamed the Reedham Orphanage) in Coulsdon (1843) and the Asylum for Idiots in Earlswood (1847)."

There were "connections" between Earlswood and West Hill/ Putney via Dr Andrew Reed and Baron Rothschild.

Jeff, we are slightly off-topic... once again...

Schwartz´s BS Man a drunken troublemaker?

[Jeff Leahy]

Poor Cat... married with Jeff Leahy...

A man who cooks the best seafood risotto she's ever tasted I might add

But seriously its going to be a few days until she's off the high dosses. I've printed out what you posted and get her to check against the various Rothchilde Family charitable connections

Although we never found a direct connection to the Earl of Crawford having explored the many possibilities. The conclusion we drew was the letter of introduction must have been throw a close friend in his social circle...An after dinner conversation over cigars, rather than a formal political association connected to Crawfords Sweater involvement although they could all be intertwined...

But the Swaeter bill was done and dusted by summer 1889 and I don't think the letter was written until the following year.

The sweater bill is interesting because his alibi for being on the ground must have been early 1889 when these investigations were being carried out..

But one of the Rothchildes asking a favour of Crawford to introduce a lady with a problem at one of their charity infirmaries, makes most sense for the connection...

Your probably right about us starting to drift off subject...shall we start a new thread? 3rd Witness? or perhaps If not Schwartz or Lawende who was the seaside Home witness.....or something like that?

Bear in mind i still have Cox's surveillance route to post somewhere

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

A man who cooks the best seafood risotto she's ever tasted I might add

Aaaahhh... that is the reason why she stayed...

But seriously its going to be a few days until she's off the high dosses. I've printed out what you posted and get her to check against the various Rothchilde Family charitable connections

A strong woman... I am a picture of misery... when I catched a cold...

Your probably right about us starting to drift off subject...shall we start a new thread? 3rd Witness? or perhaps If not Schwartz or Lawende who was the seaside Home witness.....or something like that?

I am considering... I am considering... No... No, Jeff... it is just another Jeff Leahy Karsten Giese Thread... we do not need...

Bear in mind i still have Cox's surveillance route to post somewhere

To Packer and Schwartz:

I find it hard to believe that PC Smith´s Man and BS Man were one and the same. Packer probably knew Woolf Abrahams and Aaron Kozminski (as customers?) and what if he saw Aaron with Stride that night?