Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Mac doesn't even know what happened to Kozminski after that (I believe still is)"

But he, alone, recognised that Kosminski was not dead.

Cheers.
LC

No Lynn he only recognises that Ostrog is NOT dead... He says so directly... 'HE IS STILL ALIVE'

About Kozminski he only says: He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889.

Its clear when reading this in context that MacANughten is unsure whether or not Kozminski is alive after March 1889... He only ever says Asylum...he never mentions Colney Hatch...

And now Karstens discovered a local jewish infirmary with connections to Camberwell Asylum... An Asylum in Surrey.

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning all

For many years I believed that Jack took a sweeping route from Mitre square keeping low and dodging the patrols... This would make sense of taking time to stop in a stair well in Goulston Street.

However this seems like a logical behaviour for someone not wishing to get caught but what if Jack didn't care about being caught or not, 'I know the where about of all man kind?'

So I've been pondering the most direct route from Aldgate Station to Goulston Street... The City PC witness and the couple seen at Aldgate by a watchman, and that mans most direct route to Goulston street from Mitre Square.

So todays journey starts at the Graffito and heads North towards Whitechapel High Street

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Goulston Street upto City PC boundary

Hopefully I've some wider pictures to come that give an idea how close Goulston street actually is to City PC territory

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Algate Station where a watchman observes a couple heading towards Mitre Square..

[Jeff Leahy]

Photos showing cross over between City PC and MET PC patrols. The RBS bank gives a good indicator of where City PC's would patrol down to...its about the same distance from Aldgate Station to end of Patrol for the MET patrol to Goulston street

[Paddy]

Hi Jeff, where is Butchers Row in City or Met area?

Did you know there was a Butcher-Row in Ratcliff somewhere? I read a news clip I will sort it out.

Nice Pics
Pat....

[Paddy]

Found this map that shows Butcher Row sometimes called Butchers Row
on St Katherines Blog in an article written by Andrea Gibbons on 16th July 2015 called Father John Groser at St Katherines early days in Radcliff...

It shows quite clearly Butcher Row.....Dodgy area from news articles.

Pat......

[Paddy]

Surrey Asylums

There are records from Havill Street and Constance road on Ancestry London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1659-1930 but they dont cover 1870 ish to 1888. I found a load of records of one of mine on them. She was sent from Havill street to Constance Road which I think was the old St Francis Hospital in East Dulwich and later to Leavesden.

Pat......

[Paddy]

"Packer and Schwartz were not called to the inquest because their testimony would have given the lie to the "double event"

I think maybe Packers evidence would not have stood up in court as a witness anyway as he changed his story, went to the press and Moore hashed it up while Abberline was away.
As for Schwartz, I really dont know. Does talking to the press hamper a court case ?

Pat..................

.

[Paddy]

Re Butcher Row Ratcliff

Sorry ignore the post and map
Sagar stated Butchers Row Aldgate. Should have checked......

Pat......

[Roy Corduroy]

" He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889."

Is what Macnaghten said of "Kosminski" in the Aberconway version. He did not say anything about whether he was alive or not. You are confusing the issue, Jeff, by mentioning something about Ostrog.

He was (and I believe still is) detained

Not -

He was (and I believe still is) alive

He didn't say that. You said that Jeff. Not Macnaghten. You. Jeff.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Its clear when reading this in context that MacANughten is unsure whether or not Kozminski is alive after March 1889... He only ever says Asylum...he never mentions Colney Hatch...

No, Macnaghten is not unsure. He does not address whether Kosminski is alive or not. He believes he is still detained.

It is Swanson and Swanson only who says Kosminki is deceased. And yes, Swanson does mention Colney Hatch, as the asylum where Kosminski went to and died shortly thereafter.

Kosmisnki died shortly after World War I.

Jeff, you put words in Macnaghten's mouth that he didn't say. Then you suggest it matters. What you said.

Roy

[lynn cates]

unsure

Hello Jeff. thanks.

"Its clear when reading this in context that MacNaughten is unsure whether or not Kozminski is alive after March 1889."

No, he is unsure whether he is still detained.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Lynn and Roy

Your both twisting what MacNaughten says...

Whether he is talking about Kozminski being alive or detained the context is clear that he is UNCERTAIN

Thats because MacNughten was writing a memo about Cytbush and probablly worked from the available files

Why his comments on Ostrog are important is because he infactically states 'HE IS STILL ALIVE'... If he made this statement about Ostrog it is reasonable to draw the conclusion he would have said this about Kozminski had he known if he was alive

But MacNaughten didn't know anything about Kozminski other than what was in his file unto March 1889... If you can demonstrate any where else that MacNaughten states Kozminski is alive I'm all ears Until then we'll just stick with what MacNAughten actually says and that is (I believe still is)

MacNAughten doesn't know what happened to Kozminski once he was placed in a Private Asylum in Surrey

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

MacNaughten on Kozminski: or as a possible alternative, was found to be so hopelessly mad by his relations, that he was then confined to SOME asylum.

Again it is clear from this that MacNAughten has little idea what happened to Kozminski or what asylum he was placed into

Yours Jeff