Packer and Schwartz

[Michael W Richards]

Ohh come on come on

You know you are miss reading what i'm saying... I'm fairly clear to all posters here that I'm a dyslexic...that is a double edged sword...

But it does mean I see the problem as a whole, not its individual components..

So I'm clearly talking here about Geography which is very important when considering the case...

However to argue that is the only case against Kosinski is ridiculous... We have the police reports...we have the marginalia , we have Andersons 'definitively ascertained FACT'

So if you have a suspect with more evidence against them, lets here it!... This is your time to speak up? because what I'm arguing is very clear..

Of all the suspects we have.. (139 at last count) there is very little to actual go on... But we have a lot on Kozminski..that is a simple matter of FACT

But whether you wish to argue Press reports, geography, FBI profiles, or simply the mind set of JACK... you are gona have to consider the case as a whole ..

And that means Kozminski is the only PRIME SUSPECT and thus must be considered above any other suggestions Thats why nearly all the other suspect ripperologists spend so much of their time trying to disprove or destroy Anderson..

But come on lets see what you got?

Yours Jeff

Jeff,

Clearly you have misunderstood my point, there is NO valid suspect for the five Canonical murders, there are just people like you taking "suspect" comments as verbatim facts, or speculating that someone without a shred of evidence against them is guilty. A valid suspect is someone that is linked by evidence to crimes, not just a comment by someone who someone said was guilty. As I said, to group these five murders under one killers umbrella based on the geography and time of year is to skim over the fact that the most crime ridden area in London at that time is this same area in question, and that knives were used in many, many violent crimes of the period. The area was populated by thieves, murderers, and more than a mere handful of people suffering some form of mental illness which could take violent turns.

Yes, Kosminski was one of those. So were about a dozen or more of the people put forth as suspects.

Access, location, mental illness...sure, all relevant. But for which murders? Can you say that compelling evidence suggests one man for all these five murders, or simply that the police stated they were probably connected? The overriding test of a suspect is a motive...and it appears to me that within the Canonicals there are many, many possible motives for some victims other than just a serial killer killing strange prostitutes because they were insane.

[Paddy]

Access, location, mental illness...sure, all relevant. But for which murders? Can you say that compelling evidence suggests one man for all these five murders, or simply that the police stated they were probably connected? The overriding test of a suspect is a motive...and it appears to me that within the Canonicals there are many, many possible motives for some victims other than just a serial killer killing strange prostitutes because they were insane.

I would think they were linked because there didnt appear to be a motive.... Leading the police to suspect a person who had some kind of mental psychosis. I think Henrys statement that he thought the person he followed had a problem with a woman in the past was stated from a rational point of view. They were unfortunates, out late and available and had their throats cut.
The police would have checked each victim for possible motives and I expect found none.

Pat.......

[Abby Normal]

I would think they were linked because there didnt appear to be a motive.... Leading the police to suspect a person who had some kind of mental psychosis. I think Henrys statement that he thought the person he followed had a problem with a woman in the past was stated from a rational point of view. They were unfortunates, out late and available and had their throats cut.
The police would have checked each victim for possible motives and I expect found none.

Pat.......

Hi pat.
That's a great point and one I hadn't put my finger on before-all apparently motiveless crimes.

[Michael W Richards]

I would think they were linked because there didnt appear to be a motive.... Leading the police to suspect a person who had some kind of mental psychosis. I think Henrys statement that he thought the person he followed had a problem with a woman in the past was stated from a rational point of view. They were unfortunates, out late and available and had their throats cut.
The police would have checked each victim for possible motives and I expect found none.

Pat.......

Hi Paddy,

The lack of a discernible motive doesn't equate to there being none, just that none was uncovered. When you consider that at least one of the Canonicals was not out at night and had a room in their name on the night they were killed, and that 2 had just left relationships...1 of which was in a love triangle...and that only 2 of the Canonicals we can say with any certainty were soliciting at the time they met their killer, I would think the best we can say is that 2 of them, the ones soliciting...Polly and Annie... were likely killed by a stranger while they solicited. Hence, Motiveless.

If we didn't have Kate behaving quite friendly with Sailor Man we might be able to include her as well. Since her injuries are consistent with the 2 aforementioned. But there are questions with Kate that might lead to an uncovered motive as well....did she claim to know the killer and was going to the police with that info...why did she leave the police station in the opposite direction where her "boyfriend" and her most regular lodging was? Why do we have a story for her last 24 hours that includes inconsistencies?

I think at this point in time its clear that the authorities had no case to accuse anyone in a legitimate format, so they just offered opinions. Some say he was caught, some say he escaped justice, and some say he was never known.

I guess its whom you choose to believe...but for me, none of their "rubber" meets the road.

Cheers

[Paddy]

I had always hoped to trace Henrys daughter who had worked as a lady detective later on, I thought he might have told her something. But she seems to have disappeared and none of the family seems to know what happened to her. Found her daughter but she had never seen her mum as she left when the child was very small.

Pat........

[S.Brett]

Jeff have you ever checked the Jewish records as I am sure they would have had a hand in helping? I think that my great uncle Henry Cox could have been talking about following Kosminski. I did wonder about Pizer at one point but that may have been too early.
In my searches I did find (in a list of Jewish Charities) that there was a pub in Church street (on the corner called the White something) that had a charity that helped young Jewish men out of work to become hairdressers and gave them the impliments to set them up.

Kosminski's location could explain why the police were sure Stride was also a victim of JTR, that and they Batty street incident. I found a german Mrs Kuhn living at 22 Batty street in 1884 but unfortunately she had a child from an address in Poplar in the same month as Strides murder. I traced the descendants and they knew nothing. Mrs Kuhns husband was a builder though. Since then I noticed there were a lot of Keils living in Batty street all around but not actually at that address.

I also checked the Crawford papers in Scotland a few years back and found no reference to an intoduction of a lady to Anderson.

I do think there must be a record somewhere.

Pat......

Hello Pat!

Do you know something about your great uncle´s colleague Robert Sagar? Were there sisters and/or brothers?

Kind regards,

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,

Clearly you have misunderstood my point, there is NO valid suspect for the five Canonical murders, there are just people like you taking "suspect" comments as verbatim facts,

No we are not... We are listening to what the policeman at the time had to say and taking them at face value.. For far to long have the great and the good of ripperology told us these coppers made errors...but can we actually be certain of that? Is it not just simply possible that it is we that are looking at the puzzle upside down?

Thats why we are arguing we should go back and listen to what Cox, sagar, Macnaughten, swanson and of course Anderson said... and come to the conclusion what they said was correct..

MacNAughten entered an asylum in March 1889... A city PC witness

Cox entered a Private Asylum in Surrey

Anderson an ID took place in an Asylum

I'm just saying lets listen instead of trying to interpret

or speculating that someone without a shred of evidence against them is guilty.

We're not saying Kozminski was guilty, just that Anderson and Swanson told the truth and should be listened too, because they were the men incharge of the investigation and they had all the info...now long since gone or destroyed

A valid suspect is someone that is linked by evidence to crimes, not just a comment by someone who someone said was guilty.

The problem is that the files no longer exist...we know they must have existed...but they are gone...

So we are looking at what these police officers said...and trying to make sense of what they said...

'Kozminski was the suspect'

As I said, to group these five murders under one killers umbrella based on the geography and time of year is to skim over the fact that the most crime ridden area in London at that time is this same area in question, and that knives were used in many, many violent crimes of the period. The area was populated by thieves, murderers, and more than a mere handful of people suffering some form of mental illness which could take violent turns.

Yes, Kosminski was one of those. So were about a dozen or more of the people put forth as suspects.

Actually having discussed this with Paul Begg at length I'm not convinced the Eastend at the time was as violent as is sometimes portrayed, it might well be argued modern London is far more dangerous

Murders of this kind were very rare indeed

Access, location, mental illness...sure, all relevant. But for which murders? Can you say that compelling evidence suggests one man for all these five murders, or simply that the police stated they were probably connected? The overriding test of a suspect is a motive...and it appears to me that within the Canonicals there are many, many possible motives for some victims other than just a serial killer killing strange prostitutes because they were insane.

Seven women seven bodies (Possibly eight)...One serial killer

It really is that simple

Yours Jeff

[Paddy]

Hi Karsten, I think this is the most likely Robert whose dad was Robert a farmer b 1821 and mother Sarah 1831. As far as I can see he had a brother William Henry 1856 who appears not to have married but took over his fathers farm and two sisters Sarah 1862 and Elinor 1865.

Pat.......

[lynn cates]

punctus contra punctum

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Not quite sure what you mean here... Maps have probably got as good a chance as any other 'solution' which tend to be pretty weak..."

Yes, plenty of weak solutions--including maps.

"But actually it is geography that first highlighted the authorities. They were talking about a single killer long before the Chapman murder and geography was a key element to that."

Actually, it was the brutality of the Smith through Nichols murders that drew their attention.

"In fact if you think about it geography plays an important part in most serial killers coming to the attention of the police. It's not until you have two or three bodies in a similar local, that serial killer is considered."

I hope you see the circularity in this.

"So I again advise you look at the map of where Kozminski lived and where the killer might have met his victims. Then think about Druit, getting on a train in Black Heath, travelling to Cannon Street and then to his chambers..."

Thanks, but I do not support Druitt either.

"It's a sign of the times that all sorts of weird and wonderful theories and conspiracies have been forwarded...another Masons conspiracy being a recent case."

Don't support this either.

"I don't think there's anything mysterious considering the FBI investigation techniques for such a crime... Ask yourself which ever town you live in... let's say Maidstone... If a series of murders started to happen... a woman having an object inserted into her, a woman frantically stayed, then a series of disembowelled prostitutes on the street...and you were a copper."

Would you

a) Think it was a member of the Royal family
b) Think it was a local group of charity fund raisers
c) Local medical students
d) Consider criminals with previous
e) That a serial killer might be on the lose?"

Depends on specific features. Given that a series of killings had taken place amongst women in Dusseldorf, I might include Emma Gross. And I would be WRONG--she was NOT killed by Kurten like the rest were.

"Frankly I think the geography is a no brainer. . ."

So do I. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Cross

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

Another geographical suspect? Of course--the chap you mention: Charles Cross.

But he is no more compelling than Kosminski.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

spot on

Hello (yet again) Jeff.

"That's why we are arguing we should go back and listen to what Cox, Sagar, Macnaughten, Swanson and of course Anderson said... and come to the conclusion what they said was correct."

I think Mac was spot on--he exonerated Kosminski.

Cheers.
LC

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten, I think this is the most likely Robert whose dad was Robert a farmer b 1821 and mother Sarah 1831. As far as I can see he had a brother William Henry 1856 who appears not to have married but took over his fathers farm and two sisters Sarah 1862 and Elinor 1865.

Pat.......

Thank you so much Pat!

Yesterday I found a Harry Sagar, 116 Brick Lane, Watch Maker in 1891. This is not far from the crime scene Hanbury Street.

There was a Sagar- Observation in December 1890 in Aldagte High Street opposite Butchers Row. Maybe, Sagar also watched one of the butchers; Bullas No.58, De Leeuw 59, Rayment 60 or Bosman 62.

Your great uncle Henry Cox stated:

"We had the use of a house opposite the shop of the man we suspected" End of 1888/ beginning 1889

Yesterday I was not able to find any sisters of Robert Sagar on Ancestry and World Vital Records/My Heritage Family Trees (if present at all) because I was too busy with other things...

If Harry and Robert Sagar watched the same man (Kosminski) in each case they had the use of houses opposite of these shops. In one of these cases it is possible, I guess, that they were lucky and one of the Policemen had a "friend" in one of these streets who could help them.

What do you think?

Again thank you and many greetings from Germany,

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning Lynn

Hello Jeff. Thanks.
Yes, plenty of weak solutions--including maps.

Its not about maps, maps are just a visual of Geography. They might also depict social and economic factors. Perhaps transport and accessibility.

Maps are useful things, especially when trying to picture stuff in your head.

Actually, it was the brutality of the Smith through Nichols murders that drew their attention.

"In fact if you think about it geography plays an important part in most serial killers coming to the attention of the police. It's not until you have two or three bodies in a similar local, that serial killer is considered."

I hope you see the circularity in this.

The police were considering a link between the murders of Tabram, Smith and Nichols, long before some enterprising young journalist came up with JtR..

Lots of possibilities were considered including gangs.. But the fact that they were considered out of the ordinary so quickly tells us a lot about crime in 1888.

This kind of Serial killer was very rare

Thanks, but I do not support Druitt either.

"It's a sign of the times that all sorts of weird and wonderful theories and conspiracies have been forwarded...another Masons conspiracy being a recent case."

Don't support this either.

It doesn't matter whether or not you think Druit or anyone else was JtR.

You can still look at the feasibility of each of the 139 suspects? (I've lost count at present) but you can still rate them in plausibility...

So if we look at Druit V Lechmere, I think we can say based on MacNAughtens private info that Druit is a more important suspect..

But if we just look at the geography then surely Lechmere would be a more credible suspect? So we factor in lots of stuff when reaching conclusions about any of the 139 suspects

What I'm saying is very simply if we only consider the geography then on that alone Kozminski must become the leading contender

"I don't think there's anything mysterious considering the FBI investigation techniques for such a crime... Ask yourself which ever town you live in... let's say Maidstone... If a series of murders started to happen... a woman having an object inserted into her, a woman frantically stayed, then a series of disembowelled prostitutes on the street...and you were a copper."

Would you

a) Think it was a member of the Royal family
b) Think it was a local group of charity fund raisers
c) Local medical students
d) Consider criminals with previous
e) That a serial killer might be on the lose?"

Depends on specific features. Given that a series of killings had taken place amongst women in Dusseldorf, I might include Emma Gross. And I would be WRONG--she was NOT killed by Kurten like the rest were.

"Frankly I think the geography is a no brainer. . ."

So do I. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Your arguing against yourself here maps = Geography (Physical and Social economic)

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (yet again) Jeff. Thanks.

"all collected within a few hundred yards by someone who lived and worked within a few hundred yards"

Not bad, but MERE speculation.

Cheers.
LC

Again I dispute the using of the word Mere...

Suspect ripperology is primarily SPECULATION

There is good and bad speculation depending on the facts and supporting evidence

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

Another geographical suspect? Of course--the chap you mention: Charles Cross.

But he is no more compelling than Kosminski.

Cheers.
LC

Um.. I refer you back to good or bad speculation... At best Lechmere can be connected to the bucks row murder scene, tied up with some wild geography given his route to work..

Where as the two men in charge of the case name Kozminski as a leading suspect considered at the time by police... MacNAughten..A strong suspect

These are not factors that should be ignored

Yours Jeff