Packer and Schwartz

[Abby Normal]

Bad enough...

Back to Schwartz:

Where has the man been seen with Stride by PC Smith (12.30 am) at 12.45 am? PC Smith described the man as being about 28 years of age. No one stated an age younger than 28. In 1888 Aaron Kozminski was 23 years old.

Pay attention to the hats:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldcw8XEqYv8

What is the probability that the Ripper and BS Man (if different) wore a cap with a peak?

very small IMHO. especially when we also have sightings by marshall, lawende, anon church st sighting, and probably smith. And especially since marsall, smith, Schwartz and lawende also describe the woman as Stride.

[Jeff Leahy]

Im sure that Stewart Evans would be thrilled to be considered less than a proper author on these crimes. You would have to be far more informed than you are to be such an improper expert.
:

Foregive me... and there was i thinking Mr Evans forwarded a theory on Little Childe's suspect and hence a police supported theory..

And didn't Mr Rumblow first champion the unknown local serial killer theory? Even if he has suggested since that Stride might not be a ripper victim..

And Surely most authors now believe a single serial killer the most likely solution... wasn't there some recent crack pot idea that it was some witness in Bucks Row?

When people start to believe these killings were by different people I usually recommend they get a map and mark the geography... All these women disappeared from points on Whitechapel Rd and Commercial street just a few hundred yards from each other... its a good starting place

Yours jeff

[S.Brett]

very small IMHO. especially when we also have sightings by marshall, lawende, anon church st sighting, and probably smith. And especially since marsall, smith, Schwartz and lawende also describe the woman as Stride.

Thank you Abby,

Very small in your opinion but it is not impossible?

I think it is very likely (80:20) that BS Man was the Ripper/her killer but I am not entirely convinced. The Ripper killed Nichols on the pavement, perhaps he attacked Emma Smith "in the middle of the street" and so I think it is possible that he attacked Stride in the same way. The Ripper killed in the morning hours (3-6 am, "Smith", "Tabram", Nichols, Chapman, Kelly) and before 1.00 am (Stride) it was unusual. This early time of day connected Stride and Eddowes (1.35 am) and Eddowes was certainly a victim of Jack the Ripper. Did he not notice the man behind his back (Schwartz)?

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

OK but I only really see peak caps and bowlers... What is a dear stalker? I always think of Sherlock Holmes double peak, but I'm not certain that is correct..

And from behind?

Yours Jeff

I think you are correct with Holmes...

Yes, Schwartz "had a good view of the murderer"... really? From behind and while he was running away... a good view?

[Jeff Leahy]

Thank you Abby,

Very small in your opinion but it is not impossible?

I think it is very likely (80:20) that BS Man was the Ripper/her killer but I am not entirely convinced. The Ripper killed Nichols on the pavement, perhaps he attacked Emma Smith "in the middle of the street" and so I think it is possible that he attacked Stride in the same way. The Ripper killed in the morning hours (3-6 am, "Smith", "Tabram", Nichols, Chapman, Kelly) and before 1.00 am (Stride) it was unusual. This early time of day connected Stride and Eddowes (1.35 am) and Eddowes was certainly a victim of Jack the Ripper. Did he not notice the man behind his back (Schwartz)?

Karsten.

Hi Karsten

I think it reasonable to conclude that Stride was different to the other victims. As you point out she appears to be earlier, she's the only one south of Whitechapel High street, he doesn't mutilate her for what ever reason.

Also, and here I speculate, Jacks usual approach seems to be to ask for business and let the victim take him to the murder spot (Smith possible not) but it might be argued that its a different MO

Not that that worries me there are plenty examples of double events Sally Anne Bowman and Elizabeth Figg being two such

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

We do not know how many murderers were on the loose. Maybe, there was another serial killer (Torso murders) and if the Ripper killed the C5 only, there were still the murderers of Smith, Tabram, Mackenzie and Coles.

[Jeff Leahy]

I think you are correct with Holmes...

Yes, Schwartz "had a good view of the murderer"... really? From behind and while he was running away... a good view?

If BSM was on the pavement he would have been looking directly at Schwartz when he turned and shouted Lipski...

But as you say a split second.

Most of Schwartz view was from the rear

So the view Schwartz gets could be good...it could be terrible... Its all a matter of how close BSM was to the entrance of Dutfield yard which was very dark

Your guess is as good as mine

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten

I think it reasonable to conclude that Stride was different to the other victims. As you point out she appears to be earlier, she's the only one south of Whitechapel High street, he doesn't mutilate her for what ever reason.

Also, and here I speculate, Jacks usual approach seems to be to ask for business and let the victim take him to the murder spot (Smith possible not) but it might be argued that its a different MO

Not that that worries me there are plenty examples of double events Sally Anne Bowman and Elizabeth Figg being two such

Yours Jeff

I agree, Jeff,

And I think of Emma Smith/Malvina Haynes the same night. But if the Ripper was seen in Church Lane opposite entrance Osborn Street then his way was back to the north side of the High Street. The Cox´s suspect made his way down to the Leman Street and to St. George in the east. Kosminski´s family (Isaac, Matilda, Woolf) lived south of the High Street and so it is possible that the High Street Road was a kind of a barrier. With one exception... for whatever reason...

[S.Brett]

If BSM was on the pavement he would have been looking directly at Schwartz when he turned and shouted Lipski...

But as you say a split second.

Most of Schwartz view was from the rear

So the view Schwartz gets could be good...it could be terrible... Its all a matter of how close BSM was to the entrance of Dutfield yard which was very dark

Your guess is as good as mine

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Thank you Abby,

Very small in your opinion but it is not impossible?

I think it is very likely (80:20) that BS Man was the Ripper/her killer but I am not entirely convinced. The Ripper killed Nichols on the pavement, perhaps he attacked Emma Smith "in the middle of the street" and so I think it is possible that he attacked Stride in the same way. The Ripper killed in the morning hours (3-6 am, "Smith", "Tabram", Nichols, Chapman, Kelly) and before 1.00 am (Stride) it was unusual. This early time of day connected Stride and Eddowes (1.35 am) and Eddowes was certainly a victim of Jack the Ripper. Did he not notice the man behind his back (Schwartz)?

Karsten.

Not until he started roughing up stride. And when he did he scared him off.
and its probably him noticing Schwartz and perhaps the noise from the club and perhaps the PC who had just passed him by and perhaps Diemshitz that caused stride to only have a cut throat and not further mutilations.

[Abby Normal]

We do not know how many murderers were on the loose. Maybe, there was another serial killer (Torso murders) and if the Ripper killed the C5 only, there were still the murderers of Smith, Tabram, Mackenzie and Coles.

well, we cant rule out that torso murderer and the ripper were different men. theres many similarities and as Debra Arif has pointed out the similarities between the way Jacksons and Kellys flaps of skin were removed from her abdomen are uncanny.

smith was probably done by a gang, but the ripper could have been one of them. Tabram and Mackenzie were most likely ripper victims and coles was probably killed by Stadler.

I doubt there were many unknown murderers on the loose. even though the east end was a violent place, murder of women by knife by unsubs was very rare. see Poster Colins stats on this. in 1888 it spiked up seven from only several murders the years before and after.

[Jeff Leahy]

well, we cant rule out that torso murderer and the ripper were different men. theres many similarities and as Debra Arif has pointed out the similarities between the way Jacksons and Kellys flaps of skin were removed from her abdomen are uncanny.

smith was probably done by a gang, but the ripper could have been one of them. Tabram and Mackenzie were most likely ripper victims and coles was probably killed by Stadler.

I doubt there were many unknown murderers on the loose. even though the east end was a violent place, murder of women by knife by unsubs was very rare. see Poster Colins stats on this. in 1888 it spiked up seven from only several murders the years before and after.

Hi Abby

Strangely we know there were other serial killers in the area in a comparatively short space of time, whether or Not Chapman and Cream were Jack the Ripper they were still serial killers...

I tend to think there was a separate Torso killer and that Coles was killed by Sadler, but thats just a personal perspective

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Not until he started roughing up stride. And when he did he scared him off.
and its probably him noticing Schwartz and perhaps the noise from the club and perhaps the PC who had just passed him by and perhaps Diemshitz that caused stride to only have a cut throat and not further mutilations.

I think after killing Nichols and Chapman, maybe Tabram, the Ripper knew that no one had seen him. In this case (Stride) there were witnesses, Schwartz and Pipeman, but did they see him properly? The Ripper´s sense ("his instinct"), what told it? Maybe he thought Schwartz and Pipeman come back with the police. The only witness might have been Stride and he killed her because she is a witness now (with a good view of him). But did it make sense to go to another victim (Eddowes) if a witness (Schwartz, Pipeman) had a good view of him? In my opinion the Ripper was a man who would have stopped after someone had a good view of him.

[Jeff Leahy]

I think after killing Nichols and Chapman, maybe Tabram, the Ripper knew that no one had seen him. In this case (Stride) there were witnesses, Schwartz and Pipeman, but did they see him properly? The Ripper´s sense ("his instinct"), what told it? Maybe he thought Schwartz and Pipeman come back with the police. The only witness might have been Stride and he killed her because she is a witness now (with a good view of him). But did it make sense to go to another victim (Eddowes) if a witness (Schwartz, Pipeman) had a good view of him? In my opinion the Ripper was a man who would have stopped after someone had a good view of him.

I'm not convinced he would stop simply because he thought he had been recognised...

Surely a combination of factors?

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

I'm not convinced he would stop simply because he thought he had been recognised...

Surely a combination of factors?

Yours Jeff

I am convinced that the Ripper was a "risk taker". While sitting in Church Lane and wipping his hands he found out (“under protection of of the Russian Consulate" and ”he knows the movements of all mankind”) no one had seen him. Maybe, he had a unique perception better than yours and mine.