Packer and Schwartz

[lynn cates]

annotations

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"But don't Anderson and Swanson believe that it was...'a definitively ascertained Fact'"

Anderson did. But we have no real idea how Swanson believed. That is just the nature of annotations.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sinister remark

Hello (yet again) Jeff. Thanks.

". . . if dragged by the left outstretched arm, she naturally twists onto her side."

The left? The cachous hand?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

after

Hello Karsten. Thanks. I appreciate the photos.

The quotation seems not to indicate that the suspect was in custody until after having some time elapsed AFTER the killings.

What do you think?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

deception

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"What do you think the result would be when a reporter is told by an officer, "we do not believe the story given by the witness". The reporter can only walk away right?
What do you think the officer wanted the reporter to do?"

Slight problem--in his report, Swanson seems fully aware of their suspicions.

But, perhaps their subterfuge were so expert at Leman that they deceived EVEN Swanson?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

take

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If the police definitely determined that Schwartz had lied to them. . ."

Don't think it was definite. The pieces did not fit and so--given he did not back down--he were merely told, "WE don't buy it. We need more evidence."

". . . and that his non-appearance at the inquest confirms this, they apparently did nothing about it. Wouldn't he have been charged?"

Only if they had something definite. A mere caution would suffice.

"Also, wouldn't they have also come to the conclusion that the club was behind it all?"

Possibly. But they had already investigated them. Nothing to see.

Cheers.
LC

[S.Brett]

Hello Karsten. Thanks. I appreciate the photos.

The quotation seems not to indicate that the suspect was in custody until after having some time elapsed AFTER the killings.

What do you think?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I thank you...

Sims:

"Many of the mysterious cases that baffle our police and remain mysteries are crimes of insanity committed by lunatics who have been released from control and allowed to go at large without the slightest attempt at supervision. The whole series of Whitechapel atrocities were committed by a man who had been discharged from an asylum."

Sims (Dagonet):

"Frequently this outburst - or, rather, this recurrence - of mania means a murder - sometimes a massacre. The homicidal maniac who shocked the World as Jack the Ripper had been once - I am not sure that it was not twice - in a lunatic asylum. At the time his dead body was found in the Thames, his friends, who were terrified at his disappearance from their midst, were endeavouring to have him found and placed under restraint again."

But I think we can count on Jonathan Hainsworth (Case solved 1891) who makes clear that Sims talked about Druitt.

Griffiths:

"One was a Polish Jew, a known lunatic, who was at large in the district of Whitechapel at the time of the murder, and who, having afterwards developed homicidal tendencies, was confined to an asylum."

The Polish Jew is "Kosminski" and "known lunatic" and "was at large" could mean he also was in an asylum before the Whitechapel Murders took place.

I think (he was and) it was similar to Richard Trenton Chase, "Kosminski" should have been in an asylum before the murders were committed, so my guess. The police did expect it at that time and we should also expect it today.

Lynn, I will stop posting about the wrong topic (Kosminski).

I am convinced that Lawende saw the Ripper. It is very possible that Packer saw the Ripper (as a customer) and Schwartz´s BS Man, well, I guess 80:20 for being the Ripper.

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Obviously there was NOT enough time for Stride to leave someone at the Board School and then be seen with someone else in front of the gates at the same time of 12:45. So you must be under an assumption that these times were inaccurate, one or the other, or both. I assume that one of the sightings is made up and the other was not Liz Stride..it was the young couple seen by other witnesses...so I guess we are about even with our ability to prove anything at this moment.

Hi Michael

If you would like to meet at Berner street, I can assure you that when Brown leaves the shop crossing the cross roads it only takes 4 or 5 seconds to cross the juction and pass stride and the man leant against the wall

Where as Schwartz takes between a minute and 90 seconds depending on directory to reach Dutfield Yard, So it is possible for Stride to say 'Not tonight some other night' turn and leave unseen by Brown who has his back to Stride and cross the juction to Dutfield Yard may be 10 - 15 seconds

This would mean she meets BSM at the yard entrance rather than waiting inside the gate way..

This also leaves a the man seen by Brown standing just out of Schwartz sight around the corner... Precisely where pipeman appears seconds later..

However, on Fanny, she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50..when she spent that entire 10 minutes at her door. Not only must you assume that she was NOT at her door at 12:45...something that is purely speculative....but also that Louis Diemshitz must have made an error as to his arrival time...something that he stated was empirical.

IF Fanny didn't lie, then Louis was not arriving just before 1am.

Cheers

Fanny's story is cooberated by Goldstein. He passes through Berner street shortly before 1 am. Fanny saw him and he must have recognised his description and come forward.

If Fanny was stood at her door for nomore than ten minutes it must of be 12.48ish to 12.58ish. Standing at the door is a common pass time in 1888. So perhaps she was at her door more than once? But we know that she was at her door when Gouldstein walks through... She does not see Stride soliciting.. and from her POV she can't see Strides body a few feet away but around the corner 90 degree in Dutfield yard

This is the logical conclusion i.e. that everything fits obviously we can allow people to be out by a few seconds but its not required

Eagle might have missed Strides body but it seems unlikely

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"But don't Anderson and Swanson believe that it was...'a definitively ascertained Fact'"

Anderson did. But we have no real idea how Swanson believed. That is just the nature of annotations.

Cheers.
LC

The annotations need to be considered in context.. Its my opinion that Swanson was the main source for the Kozminski investigation which was unto March 1889..

But Kozminski was back on the street and his sister in fear for her family came forward in Secret...The crawford letter.. a new witness was found and used

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (yet again) Jeff. Thanks.

". . . if dragged by the left outstretched arm, she naturally twists onto her side."

The left? The cachous hand?

Cheers.
LC

Those damn mints, always a problem.. all we can say is she did keep hold of them because they were in her hand

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Karsten. Thanks. I appreciate the photos.

The quotation seems not to indicate that the suspect was in custody until after having some time elapsed AFTER the killings.

What do you think?

Cheers.
LC

Isn't that what Karsten is speculating? that he was in custody and Schwartz for some reason failed to ID him?

Why else would Macnaughten think Druit a better suspect than kozminski

There were many circumstances...but not good enough

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Sims (Dagonet):

"Frequently this outburst - or, rather, this recurrence - of mania means a murder - sometimes a massacre. The homicidal maniac who shocked the World as Jack the Ripper had been once - I am not sure that it was not twice - in a lunatic asylum. At the time his dead body was found in the Thames, his friends, who were terrified at his disappearance from their midst, were endeavouring to have him found and placed under restraint again."

But I think we can count on Jonathan Hainsworth (Case solved 1891) who makes clear that Sims talked about Druitt.

Griffiths:

"One was a Polish Jew, a known lunatic, who was at large in the district of Whitechapel at the time of the murder, and who, having afterwards developed homicidal tendencies, was confined to an asylum."

The Polish Jew is "Kosminski" and "known lunatic" and "was at large" could mean he also was in an asylum before the Whitechapel Murders took place..

Morning Karsten.. in the back of my mind wasn't there a reference to a lunatic jumping in the river... Is it possible this is not Simm's confusing Koz and Druit?

Lynn, I will stop posting about the wrong topic (Kosminski). .

Yeah it is going a little off topic.. But I've always thought that Schwartz must have been Swansons witness, your posts have certainly changed my mind on that subject... Whether Schwartz saw Jack or not, i think your correct that Swansons witness was someone else

I'm interested in the City PC witness..perhaps the next discussion?

Has there ever been discussion on an unknown Millers court witness and when and how he might have come to police notice?

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Morning Jeff,

Isn't that what Karsten is speculating? that he was in custody and Schwartz for some reason failed to ID him?

There is a chance that he was in custody from after the Double Event to shortly before the Kelly murder took place. But we do not know...

There is also a chance that he was in custody after the Kelly murder until Cox (City Police) started the surveillance. Again pure speculation...

Morning Karsten.. in the back of my mind wasn't there a reference to a lunatic jumping in the river... Is it possible this is not Simm's confusing Koz and Druit?

If all three suspects (Druitt, Kosminski, Ostrog) were in an asylum before the Whitechapel murders occurred, I guess, there is no confusion...

Yeah it is going a little off topic.. But I've always thought that Schwartz must have been Swansons witness, your posts have certainly changed my mind on that subject... Whether Schwartz saw Jack or not, i think your correct that Swansons witness was someone else

I'm interested in the City PC witness..perhaps the next discussion?

Has there ever been discussion on an unknown Millers court witness and when and how he might have come to police notice?

Yes, the next discussion...

For a long time I thought that only Schwartz or Lawende are possible for the Seaside Home witness. After revaluating the sources I saw things in a new light.

-The witness-

For example: Astrakhan- Man! Possibly he was Jewish and if he was not the murderer of Kelly he might have been this witness. Imagine that this man returned to Kelly´s home because he had forgotten something in her room it would have been possible that he saw "Kosminski" with her...

Another example is one of the three carmen in Dorset Street. But I want to stop now...

I think that Schwartz spoke the truth. However, I think we rate the witness descriptions too high. The images I have posted, what is the age of the man?

Yours Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

You have to wonder if somebody on the police force let slip that there were difficulties in assessing the reliability of Schwartz's story because of the difficulties encountered with the translation process and that this in effect is what the press was referring to.

c.d.

Hello c.d.

With such a brief and rather vague reference to Leman St. we cannot be sure what their source was.
The Star must presumably have known that Scotland Yard was heading this investigation, so by referring to Leman Street station what exactly are they saying?
Reid was the head of the local CID for H Div. based at Leman Street, but Reid did not interrogate Schwartz, that was left to Abberline.

Perhaps the most we can take from that paragraph is a suggestion of some dissent among lower level officers who may or may not have been fully briefed on the investigation of Schwartz's story.
That is assuming, there is any accuracy to the article by the Star.

Officers at Leman Street do not write summary reports of the case to the Home Office, neither to they release descriptions of wanted suspects to the press.
Those responsibilities are left with Scotland Yard, who we must assume have a wider view of the investigation that most of the officers at Leman Street.

[Wickerman]

Slight problem--in his report, Swanson seems fully aware of their suspicions.

But, perhaps their subterfuge were so expert at Leman that they deceived EVEN Swanson?

Hello Lynn.

"Their suspicions"? you mean Leman Street?

How do you interpret Swanson's line:

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt upon it...."

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jeff,

I snipped a few points that I also disagree with, but left the focus of your comments on the following...

-Fanny's story is cooberated by Goldstein. He passes through Berner street shortly before 1 am. Fanny saw him and he must have recognised his description and come forward.

-Eagle might have missed Strides body but it seems unlikely

Yours Jeff

Ok...on the first point, you recognized that Fannys sighting of a man and a bag is corroborated when Leon and his translator (Wess again?) come in to the station on Tuesday night, but you didnt recognize that Fannys "off and on" comment suggests that she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50 when she was at it continously until 1am. It obviously suggests that she was at her door before 12:50...and saw no-one but the young couple. So:

-she did not see or hear anyone in Israels story, including Liz
-she did not see Louis arriving during at all during the last 10 minutes of the hour

Those facts imply that Liz Stride was off the street sometime between 12:35-(smiths sighting) and that Louis Diemshutz lied when he stated he was sure he arrived at 1am.

Second point..Eagle would certainly have seen a dead woman lying across the very route he took when entering the yard, so why wasnt he sure that there was one there or not?

As Ive mentioned ad infinitum here to an audience that seems to prefer to read into the evidence rather than simply read it and understand it....3 witnesses, 2 club members and 1 outside source, stated within one hour of the murder when questioned that they were alerted to the body at or before 12:45. 1 club witness even says that Louis sent him out alone for help and that he returned just after 1......do you recall Louis ever stating that? Do you recall any mention by Louis of someone sent for help other than Eagle, Louis himself and "Issac[s]"?

Fanny saw no-one but the young couple, Brown saw the young couple. Seems to me that its very possible that Liz Stride was off the street after PC Smith left, making Israel a liar, Louis a liar and Eagle a liar.

Louis and Eagle had a lot to lose if the club was suspected and closed during an investigation, people wanted it closed anyway...and Israel offers what amounts to be a fabulous story that directly benefits the 2 men.

Cheers