Packer and Schwartz

[Jon Guy]

Hi Gwyneth.

As we know both Chapman and McKenzie had these same bruises, any solution as to how the victims came to have them should be the same across all three cases.
Any theory we apply to one victim should be applied to the other two also, to see if it fits.

However, the bruises at those locations on the body may have nothing directly to do with their deaths, perhaps more due to their chosen "profession" in life.

Hi Jon

In McKenzie`s case the bruises were attributed to the killer, forcing and holding her down.

[lynn cates]

wet

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Yes, her hand relaxed but the cachous were still held between her thumb and forefinger.

Hem? Well, the report indicates her left side was wet.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

walk around

Hello (again) Gwyneth. Thanks.

I agree about from behind. But if they are face to face during the confrontation, he would need to walk round, thus releasing his hold.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

carry

Hello (yet again) Gwyneth. Thanks.

So she was unconscious but not yet cut?

OK, but why carry and not drag?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

11.30

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Yes, it had rained until 11.30. But only her left side was wet.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Yes, her hand relaxed but the cachous were still held between her thumb and forefinger.

Hem? Well, the report indicates her left side was wet.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn

Think we mentioned that she would have turned away from him, his attentions being unwelcome, but it wouldn't have taken much to spin her round. Yes, I believe she was lying on her left side in the yard?

Why not? She was a slight woman by all accounts and he wanted to get started on the real "business" soonest. I think he might have planned to mutilate in the street but found it too busy.

All good wishes
Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

OK, and this is after she were forced down? And one presumes the cachous were not yet out?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

OK, and this is after she were forced down? And one presumes the cachous were not yet out?

Cheers.
LC

Well no, before pushing her down. And I don't believe she would have dropped the cachous if pushed/forced down to her knees.

[John G]

Hello John

Still in the throes of la grippe, but will do my best:

From JTR Sourcebook:

Dr Blackwell: There were some pressure marks on the shoulders",
A juryman "Do you know how these marks were likely to have been caused?"

Blackwell:"By two hands pressing on the shoulders".

Dr George Baxter Phillips:"over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collarbone and on front of the chest there was a blueish discolouration, which I have watched and seen on two occasions since."

Forcing her to her knees would only get mud on the hem area of her clothing, which must have been fairly mud-spattered anyway and that he carried her into the yard is not, in my opinion, extremely far-fetched: "no sign of a struggle", "looked as though she had been quietly laid down." (Not up to chasing ref for the last two quotes, but that was said.

My scenario fits - up to and including the cachous. She did cry out but was throttled after Schwarz shot past (ok, walked and then ran.) if, of course Schwarz made it all up, of course, all this is irrevelant, but it beats me that perfectly good witnesses on this site are found to be lying by posters (for their own agendas), while definitely dodgy ones (Maxwell) are now found to be credible. It is agreed that the police did not share information with the press, but suddenly the police in Leman street are quoted as saying that Schwarz' evidence wasn't taken seriously. I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with protecting a witness?

As I said, my theory fits, cachous and all, despite all of the dancing around with wives/girlfriends and scarves, other people's don't (as far as I can see), as to getting Liz from the street to behind the doors. Why shouldn't he have just lifted her up post choking and placed her where he wanted her?

That's all, I can feel my temp rising again.

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

But this is not what Schwartz describes. It simply amounts to "inventing" a scenario in order to dig Schwartz's evidence out of a very big hole. In fact, it amounts to a virtual total rejection of key components of Schwartz testimony, which is then substituted for something quite different. Moreover, have you considered the irony of this approach? The only way you can demonstrate that Schwartz may be reliable is by rejecting fundamental parts of his evidence! To that extent, the argument is surely reductio ad absurdum.

There is no evidence Stride was strangled (the lack of ligature marks suggests she wasn't). There is no evidence that BS man spent 10-15 seconds strangling Stride to unconsciousness. In fact, as this would have been carried out in a public place, and he'd just been interrupted by two witnesses, I would have though that was the last thing he would do. I mean, why not simply cut her throat? Particularly as Dr Phillips said that death would then occur in as little as two seconds.

As to the mysterious pressure marks:

A Juror: "How recently might the marks have been caused?"

Dr Phillips: "That is rather difficult to say"

Nonetheless, I must concede that Schwartz would have been more convincing if he had had the benefit of someone like yourself to help him with his "story"!

[Observer]

Oh dear me

Hello Lynn,

Despair is certainly the right word for it!

The following has me in heaps of despair.

A possible explanation for Schwartz nor attending the inquest is that he was involved on a club conspiracy. Consider this scenario: Stride has been involved in a relationship with Lave. However, she decides to end things, telling Lave she's going back to Kidney. Lave is angry at being rejected, but convinces Stride to meet him by the side door of the club for a final goodbye, or in an attempt to persuade her to change her mind. However, as Stride is exiting the yard, after speaking to Lave, he stealthily approaches her from behind and slits her throat (either because he's lured her into a trap, or because he failed to change her mind about ending the affair. All in all a kind of crime passionelle.

Eagle discovers what has happened , either becoming aware of Lave's involvement or suspecting it, and recruits Schwartz to divert police attention towards an alternative suspect and away from the club, I.e in order to protect the club's interests and reputation.

[Observer]

Hello C4,

But this is not what Schwartz describes. It simply amounts to "inventing" a scenario in order to dig Schwartz's evidence out of a very big hole.

As oppsed to your invented scenario in order to kick Schwartz back into a very deep hole.

[John G]

It's of your own making then because you are having some seriouse difficulty in following simple logic in this thread. PC smiths man could be the same peaked cap man they all saw, including BS man seen by Schwartz. I've said it a million times . What can't you grasp about this.

No bruises on stride shoulders?Ok, pressure marks. LOL.
Maybe they were birthmarks.

The pressure marks could have been caused at any time. And I don't think it's me that's failing to grasp logical inconsistencies in Scwartz's evidence!

As for who killed Stride, PC Smith's man was carrying a parcel; BS man wasn't. Moreover, Schwartz said that he saw BS Man "stop and speak to the woman, who was standing in the gateway." In other words, he'd just arrived on the scene... I know, perhaps he nipped back home in order to get rid of the inconvenient parcel, before quickly returning to cut Stride's throat!

Or maybe BS man was actually Michael Maybrick, arriving late for a singing gig at the club!

[John G]

The following has me in heaps of despair.

I didn't say that's what I thought happened, it's merely a scenario that fits the physical possibility test, unlike Schwartz's evidence!

I really wish people would pay attention. I mean, how many more times do I have to say this? I believe by far the most likely scenario is that Stride was killed by PC Smith's suspect. I believe the most likely scenario is that Stride was killed by PC Smith's suspect. I believe that the most likely scenario is that Stride wad killed by PC Smith's suspect.

Please let me know if you want me to repeat again, I.e. in the interest of clarity!

[Observer]

Then why posit such outrageous scenario's

[Observer]

The pressure marks could have been caused at any time.

Including the time in which she was assaulted and murdered.

As for who killed Stride, PC Smith's man was carrying a parcel; BS man wasn't.

This is an illustration of you frequent flaws when making assumptions. We can not rule out BS man (if he existed) on the assumption that he was not carrying a parcel.