Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi jeff
Who's the third witness?

That would take us out of the realms of normal ripperology, and create all sorts of problems for the 'status quo'

Trust I don't sound like Simon Wood

Yours Jeff

[c.d.]

"It was the normal thing to do even in the 1950's where I grew up. Some older women on our street would put a chair in the doorway and sit there for hours passing comments, chit-chatting, to every passer-by, coalman, milkman, window cleaner - anybody."

But would it be normal for Mrs. Mortimer to vacate her post for a few minutes to pee or make a cup of tea?

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

"It was the normal thing to do even in the 1950's where I grew up. Some older women on our street would put a chair in the doorway and sit there for hours passing comments, chit-chatting, to every passer-by, coalman, milkman, window cleaner - anybody."

But would it be normal for Mrs. Mortimer to vacate her post for a few minutes to pee or make a cup of tea?

c.d.

Some where in the back of my mind? Mortimer had children and a sick husband...so perhaps she vacated her post?

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

"It was the normal thing to do even in the 1950's where I grew up. Some older women on our street would put a chair in the doorway and sit there for hours passing comments, chit-chatting, to every passer-by, coalman, milkman, window cleaner - anybody."

But would it be normal for Mrs. Mortimer to vacate her post for a few minutes to pee or make a cup of tea?

c.d.

The lav's were mostly outside in the those days, at the end of the yard (re: Cadosche), unless she had a guzunder, under the bed like we had.

I don't doubt Mrs Mortimer was standing where she says she was, she likely wasn't the only one either. What I doubt is her recollection of the moments away from the door, I suspect those moments were considerably longer than she remembers.

[c.d.]

Some where in the back of my mind? Mortimer had children and a sick husband...so perhaps she vacated her post?

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I have never heard that before. Very interesting if true. I'd like to see someone verify it if possible. Thanks for the recollection. Yeah, it is a major point if true as some people really hang their hat on her story.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

The backstreets of Whitechapel were anything but empty and quiet.

The street is oppressively dark, though at present the gloom is relieved somewhat by feebly lighted shopfronts. Men are lounging at the doors of the shops, smoking evil-smelling pipes. Women with bare heads and with arms under their aprons are sauntering about in twos and threes, or are seated gossiping on steps leading into passages dark as Erebus.
.
.
It is getting on into the night, but gutters, and doorways, and passages, and staircases appear to be teeming with children. See there in that doorway of a house without a glimmer of light about it. It looks to be a baby in long clothes laid on the floor of the passage, and seemingly exhausted with crying. Listen for a moment at this next house. There is a scuffle going on upon the staircase - all in the densest darkness - and before you have passed a dozen yards there is a rush down-stairs and an outsurging into the street with fighting and screaming, and an outpouring of such horrible blackguardism that it makes you shudder as you look at those curly-headed preternaturally sharp-witted children who leave their play to gather around the mêlée.
An Autumn evening in Whitechapel.
Daily News, 3 Nov. 1888.

[harry]

Coalman,Milkman,Window cleaner , a half to one hour after midnight? I do not believe so.The odd drunk,yes,the occasional latecomer,rarely.I doubt Mortimer conversed with anyone,neither saw or heard anything connected to the murder.
Schwartz can be believed,not as to detail,and so can Brown.Both in my estimation saw the killer,but it was not BS.

[Robert St Devil]

She could have been listening to the music. Or waiting to see if another fight was going to happen at the socialists club. Weekend entertainment.

[Rosella]

William Mortimer died aged about 49 in the first months of 1889. Registration St Georges in the East district. He had been a cart man. Fanny had five children who ranged in age from teenager to eight in the 1891 census. She was a widow aged 50 and a 'mangle woman' in that census.

I believe she later remarried.

[lynn cates]

cheers

Hello John. Thanks.

Precisely. And ALL congruent with a story woven from whole cloth.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Rain, rain, go away . . .

Hello Packer. Thanks.

Umm, the rain had stopped at 11.30--over an hour before.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello CD.

"If Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer besides the B.S. man, I would expect that he took all times into consideration before making that statement."

Of course. But there are other considerations besides bare time. For example, does a lady pick herself up, dust herself off, and then meet a chap (who had remained hidden) and walk with him into a dark passageway, turn around, and pull out the cachous?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sound

Hello John.

"I also think it perfectly possible that a second couple were wandering around the locality on the night of Stride's murder-possibly boyfriend and girlfriend-and that the woman bore a close resemblance to Liz Stride.

This would go someway to explaining the many discrepancies. And it could have been this alternative couple that was seen by Marshall, Brown and Schwartz (importantly, neither of these witnesses noticed the woman wearing a flower)."

Very sound reasoning.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

again

Hello (again) John.

"Nonetheless, for me there are just too many discrepancies with Schwartz's evidence: differences in the two accounts; an altercation not heard by anyone else (including Mrs D, sat feet away in the kitchen with the window); Stride holding onto the cachous after being thrown to the ground, and not even splitting the packet (which I think would have been a near impossibility); no bruising or grazing to the body; flower remaining undamaged; clothing not creased; position of the body, suggesting she was exiting the yard when attacked.

All of this suggests to me that Stride was caught unexpectedly from behind, in a stealth attack, and eased to the ground, where the killer slit her throat. And, it seems to me, that a quiet, stealthy strategy is very reminiscent of JtR's MO."

Right again. Well done.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning Karsten, John and Abbey

I've been thinking about some of your observations. I think it fair to conclude Stride was different to the other victims.

The more I think about Marshals observation it seems apparent that Stride was not as drunk as the other victims. In fact her whole behaviour suggests she was also less desperate for money and took more pride in her appearance than the others.

And consider Jacks MO? It relied entirely on the cooperation of the victim.

Unless they agreed and took him somewhere quiet, the attack was a no show.

So what if Stride was simply more alert and discerning?

Brown heres her say " Not tonight some other night" so whether she is with Jack or another man she is saying NO? so more discerning

So what if she meets her killer as witnessed by Marshal and takes him to Outfield yard, other side of the road, as seen by PC Smith, and she says.. NO.

The killer goes off disgruntled.

Shortly afterwards the man comes back and finds Stride still soliciting... They argue he attacks..its personal

Re: Schwartz. His view is largely of the rear of the BSM suspect, What if John is correct about the yard and BSM being slightly more inside the yard than on the pavement? Is it not possible that Schwartz might simply have not had a good view of BSM, and was later unable to give a positive ID of a suspect?

This would make more sense of MacNaughtens doubts. Karsten? What if there was an ID following the Farmer incident and it failed? The police would have many circumstances to suspect the suspect but not enough to prosecute or bring a case to court. They would thus need to catch him red handed, so they might let him go and have him followed?

Just one of those speculating thoughts. It would however require a third witness.

Yours Jeff