Packer and Schwartz

[Simon Wood]

Hi packers stem,

My book has twenty-seven chapters, but don't let that deter you.

Regards,

Simon

[Robert St Devil]

Was the inquest angling towards answering whodunnit?, or was it to determine if she was willfully murdered by persons unknown? Scheartz doesnt really see anything but a woman being attacked outside of a club (which isnt entirely verifying Elizabeths identity nor her murder). Packer has too many holes in his timeline. In the East End Advertiser he states the couple arrived at his window at 1145p, and how they stood across the street,in the rain, until 1215 when they moved near the music coming from the club. His account of the man's hat is near enough the other accounts tho.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

I would recommend a reading of Chapter Twenty Three of my book.

Nothing beats finding things out for yourself.

Regards,

Simon

Well, that all depends on the source.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

My reasons for believing Schwartz is a reliable witness:

- Schwartz spoke no English, he didn't read the paper. He told the story to his relatives, who later, after hearing about the murder, convince him to go to the police.

-Schwartz is part of the few witnesses who saw something out of the ordinary. If you don't know a crime happened/ is about to happen, it's much harder to remember anything afterwards. Your own memory might trick you. Schwartz saw an assault, and the assaillant turned against him after. That leaves a print in your memory for a few days. Also, he had absolutely nothing to gain from lying.


BUT
His testimony would give nothing, because I don't think the man he saw was Jack the Ripper, even if Stride is considered a ripper victim. She was killed a few minutes later. Maybe Jack was already hiding in the yard and she went there to compose herself.

Maybe the police thought the same and that's why they didn't bring him at the inquest. Maybe it was because he was Jewish who spoke no English and anti-jew resentment was skyrocketing. Your guess is as good as mine.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Wickerman,

The source is a combination of facts, reason and logic.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

Hey, buddy. Got a light?

Hello Packer.

"I've never heard of one person chasing another ready to assault the fleeing person with his pipe."

Indeed. However, I have never heard of someone standing and lighting his knife.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

A possible explanation for Schwartz nor attending the inquest is that he was involved on a club conspiracy. Consider this scenario: Stride has been involved in a relationship with Lave. However, she decides to end things, telling Lave she's going back to Kidney. Lave is angry at being rejected, but convinces Stride to meet him by the side door of the club for a final goodbye, or in an attempt to persuade her to change her mind. However, as Stride is exiting the yard, after speaking to Lave, he stealthily approaches her from behind and slits her throat (either because he's lured her into a trap, or because he failed to change her mind about ending the affair. All in all a kind of crime passionelle.

Eagle discovers what has happened , either becoming aware of Lave's involvement or suspecting it, and recruits Schwartz to divert police attention towards an alternative suspect and away from the club, I.e in order to protect the club's interests and reputation.

However, this scenario had many problems. For instance, why would Lave admit exiting the club at 12:40 for some fresh air? And, if Stride was meeting Lave that evening, why was she seen in the company of other men by various witnesses, I.e Best and Gardener, Marshall, Brown, PC Smith?

[John G]

Hello Packer.

"I've never heard of one person chasing another ready to assault the fleeing person with his pipe."

Indeed. However, I have never heard of someone standing and lighting his knife.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, it's truly remarkable how Pipeman, depicted in the police account as an innocent bystander, quietly smoking a pipe, is transformed (in the press version), into a knife-wielding confederate of BS man, who decides to rush Schwartz with the weapon.

I also find it strange that the shout of "Lipski" is entirely abscent in the press account, especially considering its sensionalist aspect; and, of course, Lipski is a pronoun, which makes a mistranslation unlikely. Moreover, BS man is depicted as a stumbling drunk in the Star's version, and therefore an even less likely candidate for Stride's murder.

[packers stem]

Hello Packer.

"I've never heard of one person chasing another ready to assault the fleeing person with his pipe."

Indeed. However, I have never heard of someone standing and lighting his knife.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
And not a very believable scenario 120 years before the smoking ban for a man to be standing outside in the drizzle trying to light a pipe

[Jeff Leahy]

Perhaps it fits too well considering none of these witnesses seem to have seen each other!

Very true. But the fact that there timings fit and they couldn't have seen each other, as I demonstrated in 'Definitive Story', surely confirms they told the truth?

The key is not what each witness see's but what they don't see

Anyway, James Brown's timing of 12:45 is only an estimate, like Schwartz's.

Yeah but he can not have seen the flower from his POV. So if he did see Stride with a man its interesting, in that Stride still had time to get to Dutfield yard and meet BSM, and it would have left a person in place who may have been Pipeman?

Brown has his back to what happens next once he passes Stride and man

As for Fanny Mortimer, her timings are all over the place. For instance, in one account she claimed to have gone to the door after hearing the measured tread of a policeman, presumably PC Smith. However, if that was the case she should at least have seen Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave, but saw neither. In fact, the only person she did see was Leon Goldstein and his little black bag, who passed by at about 1:00am. And in another account she claimed to be at the door for nearly the whole period, between 12:30 and 1:00am!

The important witnesses are Eagle and Goldstein. Eagle passes through Dutfirld yard at 12.40 and does NOT see Stride. So she is still alive at 12.40.

Gouldstein passes through the street shortly before 1 am. He confirms that Mortimer is at her door and does not see Stride soliciting suggesting she is already dead down the ally

Mortimer says (Despite reports being confusing) she was at her door for no more than ten minutes. That places her at her door via Goldstein between 12.50 and 1.00 am. She went outside hearing the tramp of a policeman feet, but did she infact hear the killer leaving Dutfield Yard? She went inside and heard the horse and cart approach and Deimschutz find the body..

Its therefore reasonable to suppose that Stride was killed between 12.40 and 12.50 am and that is the exact time Schwartz makes his claim he saw Stride attacked..

In any event, I find it remarkable, to say the least, that at some point BS Man, Schwartz, Stride and Pipeman were supposed to be assembled near to the club, at some indeterminate time. And yet, all of these people were missed by PC Smith, Lave, Eagle, Brown, Mortimer, Goldstein and Louis D!

Schwartz would have had a good view of the killer when he turned and shouted Lipski, the lighting was good...

Surely if the police had arrested a number of men, including a man with a red scarf and the Batty Street bloody shirt, then they would have used Schwartz?

And if they let the man go Schwartz must have failed to ID him?

Remember Lawende said he would not recognise the man again..

What is interesting however is the man witnessed by Schwartz, the man seen in WHitechurch passage, the man and woman seen by a watchman at Aldgate station, the man seen by Lawende, the man seen returning alone past Aldgate.. Where all similar in description

Yours Jeff

PS scratch the surface of any conspiracy theory and it never holds water

[David Orsam]

Comment: Yes, and now we have the killer letting the victim scream not one time, not two but three times! How daring of him. But mind you, not loudly. That would make him look really unprofessional in front of the bystanders.

Hi Pierre,

Unprofessional? Does your data reveal that the Whitechapel Murderer was a professional, paid, assassin then?

[David Orsam]

The statement is intentionally vague. Unless the source of that assertion is prepared to explain why he believes this to be the case, I doubt anyone else is likely to make sense of it.

Hi Wickerman,

Unfortunately, it would appear that the source of the assertion is not prepared to explain why he believes this to be the case.

[David Orsam]

I would recommend a reading of Chapter Twenty Three of my book.

Nothing beats finding things out for yourself.

Hi Simon,

Thanks for posting in this thread. I was rather hoping that if you did so you would explain the sentence quoted in the OP but you are evidently unwilling to do so.

As I stated in the OP, I have read your book, including chapter 23, but can't make head nor tail of it.

The sentence I quoted in the OP was taken from one of your posts in this Casebook forum. I would have thought that you would be prepared to explain or clarify your own posts in this forum but I guess not.

[Wickerman]

The important witnesses are Eagle and Goldstein. Eagle passes through Dutfirld yard at 12.40 and does NOT see Stride. So she is still alive at 12.40.

Gouldstein passes through the street shortly before 1 am. He confirms that Mortimer is at her door and does not see Stride soliciting suggesting she is already dead down the ally

Hi Jeff.

From what I recall, Eagle couldn't remember if he saw anyone in Berner St. at the time of his return, we read:
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about in Berner-street?
[Eagle] - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

And, although Goldstein was identified I don't remember reading his statement of who he saw in Berner St. as he passed through.

So Stride could have been standing where PC Smith saw her with the man at 12:35. To argue that Stride was gone by 12:40 only adds complication to the drama, especially when we have no direct statement to that effect.

[c.d.]

It seems like pretty basic police work to look at all witness times and try to fit them into the puzzle so I would expect that the police did so in this case. If Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer besides the B.S. man, I would expect that he took all times into consideration before making that statement.

c.d.