Packer and Schwartz

[Wickerman]

I suppose it's possible that somebody (perhaps even Pipeman) killed Stride after BS man left, and that this is what you're getting at. To me, Schwartz lying is the simpler explanation, but, yes, two attacks on Stride in the same hour is a thing that could have happened on the streets of Whitechapel.

That is the view considered by Swanson, that there was sufficient time for another man to appear on the scene.
That being the case, we cannot discard that possibility out of hand.

[John G]

Dr Blackwell estimated that time of death was between 20 and 30 minutes prior to his arrival at 1:16. That, of course, suggests Stride was killed between 12:46 and 12:56. However, even this is little more than guesswork. In fact, there can be so many variables, and the process is so subjective, that even modern guidance, from the Forensic Science Regulator, states that pathologists shouldn't even attempt to make an estimate of time of death.

There are many reasons to doubt Schwartz's evidence, which have been discussed at length on other threads. Moreover, the time that he stated he witnessed the altercation, 12:45, was only an estimate. And who's to say that he was any more accurate than Edward Spooner, who estimated that he arrived at the yard at 12:35; of course, he must have been at least half an hour out.

[Jeff Leahy]

Dr Blackwell estimated that time of death was between 20 and 30 minutes prior to his arrival at 1:16. That, of course, suggests Stride was killed between 12:46 and 12:56. However, even this is little more than guesswork. In fact, there can be so many variables, and the process is so subjective, that even modern guidance, from the Forensic Science Regulator, states that pathologists shouldn't even attempt to make an estimate of time of death.

There are many reasons to doubt Schwartz's evidence, which have been discussed at length on other threads. Moreover, the time that he stated he witnessed the altercation, 12:45, was only an estimate. And who's to say that he was any more accurate than Edward Spooner, who estimated that he arrived at the yard at 12:35; of course, he must have been at least half an hour out.

Dr Blackwells evidence is supported by the other witnesses..

Fanny Mortimer is at her door for 10 minutes, while out of her view Stride was bleeding to death... Brown leaves the shop at the same time Schwartz enters Berner st.. His POV doesn't see Schwartz..

All the evidence fits like a glove despite many threads of discussion on the subject..

However Schwartz was not Swansons witness

Yours Jef

[John G]

Dr Blackwells evidence is supported by the other witnesses..

Fanny Mortimer is at her door for 10 minutes, while out of her view Stride was bleeding to death... Brown leaves the shop at the same time Schwartz enters Berner st.. His POV doesn't see Schwartz..

All the evidence fits like a glove despite many threads of discussion on the subject..

However Schwartz was not Swansons witness

Yours Jef

Perhaps it fits too well considering none of these witnesses seem to have seen each other! Anyway, James Brown's timing of 12:45 is only an estimate, like Schwartz's. As for Fanny Mortimer, her timings are all over the place. For instance, in one account she claimed to have gone to the door after hearing the measured tread of a policeman, presumably PC Smith. However, if that was the case she should at least have seen Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave, but saw neither. In fact, the only person she did see was Leon Goldstein and his little black bag, who passed by at about 1:00am. And in another account she claimed to be at the door for nearly the whole period, between 12:30 and 1:00am!

In any event, I find it remarkable, to say the least, that at some point BS Man, Schwartz, Stride and Pipeman were supposed to be assembled near to the club, at some indeterminate time. And yet, all of these people were missed by PC Smith, Lave, Eagle, Brown, Mortimer, Goldstein and Louis D!

[David Orsam]

but, yes, two attacks on Stride in the same hour is a thing that could have happened on the streets of Whitechapel.

Without wishing to put words into his mouth, I think this is a theory that Simon Wood would describe as 'Alice in Wonderland' (for he says as much in his book). Not my words or thoughts to be clear.

[David Orsam]

It is very easy to fall into the trap of interpreting Event A (Schwartz's account of the interaction between Stride and the B.S. man) in light of Event B (Stride's death). If we use the word "attack" that applies malicious intent and we have no way of knowing the true intent of the B.S. man. It is quite possible that he simply wanted to give her a shove in response to her mouthing off to him. It need not be nothing more than that. He does so with a few added curse words and off he goes. Her actual killer (who I believe was Jack) then enters the scene. This scenario eliminates all of the red flags associated with the B.S. man being Stride's killer and also eliminates a lying Schwartz involved in some sort of elaborate cover-up.

c.d.

I agree this is plausible and, had there not been a murder that night, Schwartz would almost certainly not have reported anything to the police.

[David Orsam]

Without addressing anyone in particular I just want to focus minds on the subject of this thread which is essentially:

"Packer and Schwartz were not called to the inquest because their testimony would have given the lie to the "double event."" Discuss.

Whether one thinks that the man Schwartz saw was the murderer or not, and whether this affects one's own personal opinion as to whether Liz Stride was murdered by JTR or the Whitechapel Murderer, or whatever you want to call him, is not the issue here. Nor do we need to go into the question of why these men were not called as witnesses I'm trying to establish how the evidence (as it would have been given at the inquest) of Packer and Schwartz would have disproved - or 'given the lie to' - the double event.

So far, I'm seeing nothing.

[c.d.]

So far, I'm seeing nothing.


Nor am I. It is pretty hard to make a case one way or another since no one (although some purport to know) actually knows why these witnesses were not called.

c.d.

[John G]

Packer and Schwartz not being called to the inquest would clearly not "have given lie to the double event". In my opinion, such a notion is without foundation and should be rejected.

As an aside, I also do not agree with Simon's argument, as expressed in Ripperologist 133, that Annie Chapman was murdered by an army officer, and Tory MP, in the guise of the pensioner Ted Stanley. In my opinion, such a notion is equally without foundation and should be rejected.

[Simon Wood]

Hi John G,

Duly noted.

Thank you.

Regards,

Simon

[Pierre]

Lucky Israel Schwartz!

"12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway."

Comment: And here we have Jack the Ripper, in full view of some witnesses and speaking to the victim. Fantastic!

"The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway"

Comment: Great. Here we see the serial killer trying to get a grip on the victim. Impressing.

"and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly."

Comment: Yes, and now we have the killer letting the victim scream not one time, not two but three times! How daring of him. But mind you, not loudly. That would make him look really unprofessional in front of the bystanders.

"On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe."

Comment: Calmly smoking as his old pal Jack was entertaining him with murder in the streets. Perhaps he brought some grapes with him too.

"The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, 'Lipski',"

Comment: "Lipski! Please come and help me! This woman is to big for me, I canīt handle it!" Poor Jack.

"and then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

Comment: The second man suddenly remembered Jack and the big woman. What if she would try to murder his friend instead! So he swiftly ran back to avert the danger and help Jack to continue his murder.

How lucky he was, Israel Schwartz. Standing face to face with the Whitechapel killer.

Regards Pierre

[packers stem]

"12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway."

Comment: And here we have Jack the Ripper, in full view of some witnesses and speaking to the victim. Fantastic!

"The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway"

Comment: Great. Here we see the serial killer trying to get a grip on the victim. Impressing.

"and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly."

Comment: Yes, and now we have the killer letting the victim scream not one time, not two but three times! How daring of him. But mind you, not loudly. That would make him look really unprofessional in front of the bystanders.

"On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe."

Comment: Calmly smoking as his old pal Jack was entertaining him with murder in the streets. Perhaps he brought some grapes with him too.

"The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, 'Lipski',"

Comment: "Lipski! Please come and help me! This woman is to big for me, I canīt handle it!" Poor Jack.

"and then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

Comment: The second man suddenly remembered Jack and the big woman. What if she would try to murder his friend instead! So he swiftly ran back to avert the danger and help Jack to continue his murder.

How lucky he was, Israel Schwartz. Standing face to face with the Whitechapel killer.

Regards Pierre

Try the press report Pierre,it's much more believable.
I've never heard of one person chasing another ready to assault the fleeing person with his pipe

[Wickerman]

Without addressing anyone in particular I just want to focus minds on the subject of this thread which is essentially:

"Packer and Schwartz were not called to the inquest because their testimony would have given the lie to the "double event."" Discuss.

Whether one thinks that the man Schwartz saw was the murderer or not, and whether this affects one's own personal opinion as to whether Liz Stride was murdered by JTR or the Whitechapel Murderer, or whatever you want to call him, is not the issue here. Nor do we need to go into the question of why these men were not called as witnesses I'm trying to establish how the evidence (as it would have been given at the inquest) of Packer and Schwartz would have disproved - or 'given the lie to' - the double event.

So far, I'm seeing nothing.

Hi David.
Hope you are well.

The statement is intentionally vague. Unless the source of that assertion is prepared to explain why he believes this to be the case, I doubt anyone else is likely to make sense of it.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Wickerman,

I would recommend a reading of Chapter Twenty Three of my book.

Nothing beats finding things out for yourself.

Regards,

Simon

[packers stem]

Hi Wickerman,

I would recommend a reading of Chapter Twenty Three of my book.

Nothing beats finding things out for yourself.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon
Something to look forward to then
I've downloaded it but still got a third of the real Mary Kelly to get through and as for Bruce Robinson!!That scary 800 pages may have to wait a while if your books got more than 23 chapters