Possible explanation for Maxwell Discrepency?

[MysterySinger]

But who was Maxwell. What do we really know about her? Has anyone found her (or him) in any records from the period?

[JadenCollins]

The more I read about MJK, the more I think Maxwell's was right. I get that she's only seen her on two short occasions but you can't mistake someone for someone else unless it's dark outside.

Something doesn't add up to MJK's story, I can't really put it into words but I can't help but think that the body that was found at Miller's Court wasn't MJK, could be someone who stayed over at her place?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Robert/Sir John,

I think that the gang-related angle has been significantly understated, particularly when you consider that there were a number of possible gang murders and attacks that preceded the Whitechapel murders.

Thus, in November 1888 Emily Hornsnell, who lived in George Street, claimed to have been kicked in the stomach by a group of men:she subsequently died of her injuries. Then in April 1888 we have possible gang assaults on both Emma Smith and Margaret Hames, who were also George Street residents. And, of course, Smith also died as a result of her injuries.

Hames had also been violently assaulted in December 1887, and as a consequence spent almost 3 weeks in the infirmary. And, on the same day that Smith was murdered, Malvina Haynes, also of Whitechapel, was brutally assaulted near Leman Street Railway station, receiving severe head injuries that rendered her unconscious.

And, of course, Martha Tabram, also of George Street, was violently murdered in August 1888; and considering the multiple stab wounds, gang activity surely can't be ruled out.

In any event, what all of these violent crimes have in common, apart from location, is that they appear to be motiveless. I mean, if, say, robbery was an underlying motive then why the extreme violence? Why the overkill, which is also characteristic of JtR's MO?

As I've argued before, I think it at least possible that JtR started out as a gang member, but may have branched out as his activities become too violent, unusual, and extreme for the other members. That's not to say that he couldn't have retained contacts, and received support from the gang in the future.

wow JohnG-Interesting take.

However, I don't think there has ever been a serial killer who started off killing in a gang. They tend to be loners. There whole psychology is the "double life". totally opposite of someone who feels the pull of the gang-different mentality.

Now many have started off with criminal records before they went on there spree-hot prowl burleries, peeping toms, rape seem to be the most common but again, done in isolation.

That's not saying that the ripper couldn't have been in a gang-just highly doubtful.

If there is any, IMHO, victim-I could possibly see him being one of the men who attacked smith-perhaps the one that did the thing with the stick. And that was the trigger act that possibly started it and he then went solo.

Howver, I think it much more likely that she WAS the victim to a gang (sans ripper) and the ripper started off alone with his fantasy with Millwood, and then the trigger kill being Tabram.

[John G]

If that is the case, it attests to two things: the weight of organized crime in 1888 Whitechapel, and the corruption within the police department. I dont know how familiar you are with the femicides that have taken place in Juarez these past decades. I wont go into detail on this thread, but its looking to be what everyone sxpected - a gang working under tha banner of a much larger organization. If that is what played out in 1888, it would be better to identify those rip gangs that everyone suggested in the beginning.

Hello Robert/Sir John,

I think that the gang-related angle has been significantly understated, particularly when you consider that there were a number of possible gang murders and attacks that preceded the Whitechapel murders.

Thus, in November 1888 Emily Hornsnell, who lived in George Street, claimed to have been kicked in the stomach by a group of men:she subsequently died of her injuries. Then in April 1888 we have possible gang assaults on both Emma Smith and Margaret Hames, who were also George Street residents. And, of course, Smith also died as a result of her injuries.

Hames had also been violently assaulted in December 1887, and as a consequence spent almost 3 weeks in the infirmary. And, on the same day that Smith was murdered, Malvina Haynes, also of Whitechapel, was brutally assaulted near Leman Street Railway station, receiving severe head injuries that rendered her unconscious.

And, of course, Martha Tabram, also of George Street, was violently murdered in August 1888; and considering the multiple stab wounds, gang activity surely can't be ruled out.

In any event, what all of these violent crimes have in common, apart from location, is that they appear to be motiveless. I mean, if, say, robbery was an underlying motive then why the extreme violence? Why the overkill, which is also characteristic of JtR's MO?

As I've argued before, I think it at least possible that JtR started out as a gang member, but may have branched out as his activities become too violent, unusual, and extreme for the other members. That's not to say that he couldn't have retained contacts, and received support from the gang in the future.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

There are a few gang killings in Stubley's book "1888: murders in the year of the ripper". Interesting read.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15931984-1888

[Robert St Devil]

The police did have to go out and find witnesses (Lawende comes to mind), they didn't always come forward of their own accord. For some people, the East End was a place where you learned to keep your mouth shut.

If that is the case, it attests to two things: the weight of organized crime in 1888 Whitechapel, and the corruption within the police department. I dont know how familiar you are with the femicides that have taken place in Juarez these past decades. I wont go into detail on this thread, but its looking to be what everyone sxpected - a gang working under tha banner of a much larger organization. If that is what played out in 1888, it would be better to identify those rip gangs that everyone suggested in the beginning.

[Wickerman]

If I remember correctly, research done by Neil Shelden of the Morgenstern's who Kelly stayed with in Breezers Hill indicated they came from Fulham or Chelsea, that general area.
One of the brothers owned a house back there of some dubious repute?

For some reason my Kindle copy refuses to open so I can't check, sorry.

Apparently Maran & Adrianus Morgenstern, brothers, lived in Victoria Road, Fulham.
In 1881 their address was 43 Victoria Rd., but Adrianus is later said to be living at 31 Victoria Rd. The change of address is not dated nor explained by Shelden.

We have an account given by a descendant of Adrianus's daughter that she remembered being raised in a brothel in Limehouse. This period appears to be dated after 1884, so the family may have been operating a brothel after they moved from Fulham.

I can't find any reference to the family being connected with a brothel in Fulham, though that would be a difficult connection to make - no records are likely to exist.
Because they were in that business after 1884, they could have been in that line of work before 1884, back in the West End.

The change of address by 1884 is somewhat coincidental with the suggested date that Kelly arrived in London to work in the brothel.

[DJA]

what's the difference? Dictionary says gay house was a term used to define a brothel.

I thought you were asking a question because you did not know.

[GUT]

I am still waiting for anyone from the pub recalling anything in this case at all. Where are the pubfolk statements - a bartender, waitress, bouncer,... You would think that Chapman and Kelly were 'known' or 'recognized'? Or one that could confirm whether Kelly was in the bar that morning with Barnett? or serving Elizabeth Stride at the Bricklayers? Or Eddowes during the afternoon? Or martha Tabram and mary conely since they visit many pubs with these two men?

It makes it seem filtered.

But we have so few official statements all we have are news reports.

[Wickerman]

The police did have to go out and find witnesses (Lawende comes to mind), they didn't always come forward of their own accord. For some people, the East End was a place where you learned to keep your mouth shut.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

"Yes. She was in a gay house in the West-end, but in what part she did not say".....Joseph Barnett at the Inquest.

what's the difference? Dictionary says gay house was a term used to define a brothel.

[Robert St Devil]

Maurice Lewis claimed that he saw Kelly in the Ringers (Britannia), at 10:00am, and that she was drinking with some other people. This is extraordinary considering no one else recalled seeing her in the pub at that timelet alone conversing with her. Therefore, if Lewis is correct we must surely be dealing with a major conspiracy/cover-up.

I am still waiting for anyone from the pub recalling anything in this case at all. Where are the pubfolk statements - a bartender, waitress, bouncer,... You would think that Chapman and Kelly were 'known' or 'recognized'? Or one that could confirm whether Kelly was in the bar that morning with Barnett? or serving Elizabeth Stride at the Bricklayers? Or Eddowes during the afternoon? Or martha Tabram and mary conely since they visit many pubs with these two men?

It makes it seem filtered.

[Wickerman]

"Yes. She was in a gay house in the West-end, but in what part she did not say".....Joseph Barnett at the Inquest.

If I remember correctly, research done by Neil Shelden of the Morgenstern's who Kelly stayed with in Breezers Hill indicated they came from Fulham or Chelsea, that general area.
One of the brothers owned a house back there of some dubious repute?

For some reason my Kindle copy refuses to open so I can't check, sorry.

[DJA]

"Yes. She was in a gay house in the West-end, but in what part she did not say".....Joseph Barnett at the Inquest.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

A gay house.

"According to Joseph Barnett, on arriving in London, Kelly went to work in a high class brothel in the West End. She says that during this time she frequently rode in a carriage and accompanied one gentleman to Paris, which she didn't like and she returned."