Descriptions.

[Duran duren]

Thanks RJ! I have read Gavins article several times, its very good. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of looking at it from my pov (I'm 6'), so that would put me over 7'at the doorway and a 5 1/2' fence would not block anything, esp if you go with the later killing of AC.
Then again, Albert was in kind of a hurry for the outhouse and certainly wasn't considering whether a woman was being murdered across the fence.

[Fiver]

Im not sure how popular deerstalker hats were but they were the only distinctive item of dress other than the apparel Hutchinson described. That seemed over the top unless Possibly his purpose was to get Kelly indoors. Dress to impress? Wasn't the deerstalker a hunters hat?

Correct. It would be unusual to see a deerstalker in the city.

OTOH, unless seen from the back, it would be possible to mistake some other type of flat cap with a deerstalker.

[Lewis C]

There’s no issue with there being a gap between the “no” and the sound against the fence unless we make the assumption that the sound was made by the body falling against the fence but it might not have been that. It could have been the killer brushing against the fence as he was mutilating the corpse and perhaps changing his position.

I agree with that Herlock, and I'll add that if Cadosch heard Chapman saying no to her killer, we don't know what she was saying no in response to. I think it is often assumed that she said no when she recognized that an attack on her was beginning, but maybe there's a more mundane explanation. Maybe the man asked her if people come into the neighboring yard very often, and she said no to that. Or maybe he asked her if she'd like a cachou. Those are just 2 possible examples. Under this scenario, the attack on her would have begun when Cadosch was inside, between his 2 trips to the loo.

[Tom_Wescott]

Am I reading your analyse correctly...that Jack was robbing her for about four minutes while she was still upright, and then he proceeded to throw her down against the fence and cut her throat?

Four minutes? I doubt it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GBinOz]

George, in your opinion, how tall do you think that fence was? I go with less than 5'5".

Davis testified "about 5 ft. 6 in. high", and Cadosh testified "about 5 ft. 6 in. to 6 ft. high", so I'd say probably 5'6".

[Duran duren]

Thanks George! If someone believes in the later time theory of AC's murder, then that tells a whole different story of the Whitechapel murderer IMO. Not once but twice did Albert come down those steps and yet JtR continued his pursuits all within early daylight...much different than the other poor victims of however many we believe. It says a lot.

[GBinOz]

Thanks George! If someone believes in the later time theory of AC's murder, then that tells a whole different story of the Whitechapel murderer IMO. Not once but twice did Albert come down those steps and yet JtR continued his pursuits all within early daylight...much different than the other poor victims of however many we believe. It says a lot.

Quite so. In the case of Nichols, Stride, McKenzie and Coles, the perpetrator left at the first sign of possible discovery. In the Chapman case we are told that he stayed while a potential witness twice passed within feet of him in broad daylight, having only to look over the fence and raise the alarm. That's not to mention all the people living in the buildings with an overview of the yard that were rising to start their work day.

[rjpalmer]

Quite so. In the case of Nichols, Stride, McKenzie and Coles, the perpetrator left at the first sign of possible discovery.

Hi George,

I hesitate to say this, but...

not according to Christer and Mr. Stow....

Cheers,

RP

[Duran duren]

Lol...

[Lewis C]

I think it's possible that Nichols was killed at about 3:30 and her killer left before Cross entered Buck's Row. If BS man killed Stride, he not only didn't leave at the first sign of discovery, he even committed the murder after being seen. It's certainly true though that a post-dawn murder would make Chapman's murder different from that of any other Ripper victim.

[Tom_Wescott]

I think it's possible that Nichols was killed at about 3:30 and her killer left before Cross entered Buck's Row. If BS man killed Stride, he not only didn't leave at the first sign of discovery, he even committed the murder after being seen. It's certainly true though that a post-dawn murder would make Chapman's murder different from that of any other Ripper victim.

Regarding Nichols, what you say is entirely possible. Regarding BS Man, he and Stride hung around for 15 minutes! But Brown didn't see BS Man c. 12:51. He saw a man in an overcoat. Regarding Chapman, the Ripper worked by his own schedule. Stride was killed much earlier than the other victims, although the same time as McKenzie. If you strike Stride and McKenzie, Eddowes was killed much earlier than the other victims. Chapman was killed at a time closer to Kelly than Eddowes. I would absolutely love to know what Chapman did in the almost four hours before when she allegedly left 35 Dorset Street and when her body was found.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Duran duren]

Yet it's those missing hours that make me question her time of death, yeah I know i'm probably wrong but still...daylight or maybe it just doesn't fit my version of the killer....another no no

[Tom_Wescott]

Yet it's those missing hours that make me question her time of death, yeah I know i'm probably wrong but still...daylight or maybe it just doesn't fit my version of the killer....another no no

I wouldn't say you're 'probably' wrong. I've wavered on this and I may still be wavering. Richardson and Cadosch teeter me to the 5:30 side, though. As for the 2 a.m. time of leaving the lodging house, it's occurred to me that we have only Tim Donovan and 'Brummy'. The lodger who was drinking with her at the house said that Chapman had her medicine bottles with her and that he was under the impression that she went upstairs to her bed when she left him in the kitchen. Donovan is later in possession of her medicine bottles and says he found them in her room. Why were they upstairs in her room if she hadn't paid for a bed? One reason is that because she was a regular she bluffed her way past Brummy's wife who, assuming she'd paid, let her up. At some later point (possibly well after 2a.m.) Donovan or Brummy found her and booted her out. But they changed the story to the police to make themselves not look so bad. One interesting caveat is that Donovan claimed (or was reported to have claimed) that he found the medicine bottles in her room the weekend BEFORE she died, not the morning after. Hard to make sense of that since she had them in her possession in the hours before her death but Donovan had them after. NOTE: I do not think Donovan/Brummy killed Chapman or knew who did.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lewis C]

Regarding Nichols, what you say is entirely possible. Regarding BS Man, he and Stride hung around for 15 minutes! But Brown didn't see BS Man c. 12:51. He saw a man in an overcoat. Regarding Chapman, the Ripper worked by his own schedule. Stride was killed much earlier than the other victims, although the same time as McKenzie. If you strike Stride and McKenzie, Eddowes was killed much earlier than the other victims. Chapman was killed at a time closer to Kelly than Eddowes. I would absolutely love to know what Chapman did in the almost four hours before when she allegedly left 35 Dorset Street and when her body was found.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

On the Stride murder, I think it's very possible that Brown was mistaken about having seen Stride. Even if he really did see Stride, I'm perhaps more willing than you to make allowances on times, so I say that the Schwartz incident could have happened after Brown saw the couple.

I agree with your later point, not only for times, but for other things. For example, Nichols was killed much further east than the others, and Kelly was the only one killed inside, but we don't generally question those as being Ripper murders on those grounds.

[Tom_Wescott]

On the Stride murder, I think it's very possible that Brown was mistaken about having seen Stride. Even if he really did see Stride, I'm perhaps more willing than you to make allowances on times, so I say that the Schwartz incident could have happened after Brown saw the couple.

I agree with your later point, not only for times, but for other things. For example, Nichols was killed much further east than the others, and Kelly was the only one killed inside, but we don't generally question those as being Ripper murders on those grounds.

Regarding Brown, he was as confident as could be reasonably expected that he saw Stride. And we can't forget the chandler at the shop Brown went to was spoken to, so if any doubt had been cast on Brown or his timings he would not have been offered to Baxter and Baxter would not have chosen him to given evidence. Schwartz doesn't appear to have offered a corroborating witness (although I would suggest that Brown himself corroborates Schwartz) Not only the police, but Baxter believed Brown saw Stride. He got a better look at Stride than Lawende did Eddowes. The doubt that clouds him comes from how his evidence was misrepresented in the centenary books up through Sugden. He was ignored or dismissed unfairly. As for times, I make any and all reasonable allowances, but here's the rub. Schwartz looks at a clock and says 12:45. Brown has a clock in his house and says 'about 12:45' he left his house and five minutes later he sees Stride with a man. To place Schwartz before Brown, as nearly every author aside from myself does, you have to actually ignore the sworn evidence of two witnesses. If a writer is doing that (this is not aimed at you, Lewis), they should really ask themselves why they're doing that. When I undertook my Berner Street research it was with an eye to clearing away the nonsense that had been piled on by sloppy researchers, folk lore, and (sorry to say) authors with an agenda. That is to say, authors who need BS Man in frame because he more closely resembles their suspect. Ripper Confidential (2018...think about that) is the only book to propose that Brown saw Stride several minutes after Schwartz and I intentionally published all my sources for the reader to consider the actual statement. My approach is simple: 'this is what the historical record actually says, and here's what it means'. Pure as the driven snow. Doesn't it strike you odd how this perspective is treated as radical or even untenable? My entire argument is made by simply sharing four or five published transcripts of Brown's inquest evidence. It's all right there.

Of course it's possible that Schwartz saw what he did just after Brown, but it's possible in the same way that the Ripper had 20 minutes to work in Mitre Square. We have to change the given timings to make it work. Why are we so keen to do that?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott