Descriptions.

[GBinOz]

Regarding Brown, he was as confident as could be reasonably expected that he saw Stride. And we can't forget the chandler at the shop Brown went to was spoken to, so if any doubt had been cast on Brown or his timings he would not have been offered to Baxter and Baxter would not have chosen him to given evidence. Schwartz doesn't appear to have offered a corroborating witness (although I would suggest that Brown himself corroborates Schwartz) Not only the police, but Baxter believed Brown saw Stride. He got a better look at Stride than Lawende did Eddowes. The doubt that clouds him comes from how his evidence was misrepresented in the centenary books up through Sugden. He was ignored or dismissed unfairly. As for times, I make any and all reasonable allowances, but here's the rub. Schwartz looks at a clock and says 12:45. Brown has a clock in his house and says 'about 12:45' he left his house and five minutes later he sees Stride with a man. To place Schwartz before Brown, as nearly every author aside from myself does, you have to actually ignore the sworn evidence of two witnesses.

Tom, I have not seen any reference to Schwartz having looked at a clock at 12:45. When he said he turned into Berner St at about 12:45, I assume he was estimating a time interval from when he had last seen a clock of indeterminate synchronisation with GMT. Likewise I have seen no reference to Brown having a clock in his house unless that possibility is to be inferred from his testimony "I arrived home first at ten minutes past twelve o'clock".

Looking at the reports of Brown's testimony, most that I have found say that he testified "I saw her about a quarter to one", with only (that I have found), the Daily News reporting that he left his home at "about 12:45".

While we are unable to determine the time sync and estimating errors involved, it would appear on the face of it and short of evidence to the contrary, that Brown was looking at a woman he thought was Stride at the time that Schwartz was turning into Berner St from Commercial Road.
Ergo, it appears that the only way Schwartz could be placed before Brown (contrary to your theory) is if the Daily News report of Brown seeing the woman five minutes after he left his house at 12:45 is adopted over the majority of reports, as you appear to have done above. Alternatively, perhaps I am having a "senior moment".

Cheers, George

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, I have not seen any reference to Schwartz having looked at a clock at 12:45. When he said he turned into Berner St at about 12:45, I assume he was estimating a time interval from when he had last seen a clock of indeterminate synchronisation with GMT. Likewise I have seen no reference to Brown having a clock in his house unless that possibility is to be inferred from his testimony "I arrived home first at ten minutes past twelve o'clock".

Looking at the reports of Brown's testimony, most that I have found say that he testified "I saw her about a quarter to one", with only (that I have found), the Daily News reporting that he left his home at "about 12:45".

While we are unable to determine the time sync and estimating errors involved, it would appear on the face of it and short of evidence to the contrary, that Brown was looking at a woman he thought was Stride at the time that Schwartz was turning into Berner St from Commercial Road.
Ergo, it appears that the only way Schwartz could be placed before Brown (contrary to your theory) is if the Daily News report of Brown seeing the woman five minutes after he left his house at 12:45 is adopted over the majority of reports, as you appear to have done above. Alternatively, perhaps I am having a "senior moment".

Cheers, George

Hi GB. Which unique sources have Brown saying 'I saw her about a quarter to one' and, most importantly, what is the sentence right after that? If you're referring to the Times, I've included that below.

Brown states in reply to the coroner that upon returning home to eat his supper he did not look at a clock. Earlier he stated that he returned home at 12:10 p.m. That specific timing suggests to me that upon returning home, he looked at a clock. Also, he lived in a boarding house and I would expect a clock to be on the wall. As for Schwartz, he walked past more than one clock coming into Berner Street. He was able to fix the time to both Abberline's and Swanson's satisfaction as Swanson did not supply a time range, but the specific '12:45'. I'm sure you would agree that Abberline would have asked how he fixed his time and apparently received an answer that satisfied him.

But GB writes: "While we are unable to determine the time sync and estimating errors involved, it would appear on the face of it and short of evidence to the contrary, that Brown was looking at a woman he thought was Stride at the time that Schwartz was turning into Berner St from Commercial Road." Who is this 'we' you're referring to? Theorists whose argument hinges (in part or whole) on Stride's killer being BS Man? I appreciate that all the old books got it wrong, but the databases are richer now and allow for more resource material with which we can correct (and not perpetuate) the old errors. Here are four papers with unique reporting of James Brown. All a little different, but look at what they say in regards to when he left his house verses when he saw the couple. Bold/Italics are mine.

The Times: I saw the deceased about a quarter to 1 on Sunday morning. At that time I was going from my house to get some supper from a chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street. As I was going across the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board School in Fairclough-street.

Daily Telegraph: (Brown) I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know the deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last. (Coroner) Where were you? (Brown) I was going from my house to the chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School.

Morning Advertiser: On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.

The Star: [Brown] said that at about a quarter to one on Sunday morning he went out to get some supper at the corner of Berner-street, where there is a chandler's shop. He was gone three or four minutes, and as he returned he saw a man and woman standing by the Board School (which is just opposite the scene of the murder).

Let me say that I am absolutely fine if BS Man was the last man seen with Stride. I don't care. But it simply won't do any more to cherry pick sentences from the Times and pretend they say something they don't. You may not be aware how many times I've seen that pulled, but it's a lot. I'd respect an author (and I appreciate you're just posting on a forum and not writing a book and I do know that's not the same thing) who is willing to take ALL this on board - including the proof I published demolishing the 'young couple on the corner' red herring so favored by certain theorists in order to discredit Brown. Take ALL this on board, acknowledge its reality, and then craft a reasonable argument for BS Man as killer. You'll get a five star review from me. #freejamesbrown

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Rookie Detective]

It seems fairly clear to me that Brown and Schwartz cannot coexist in the same space at the same time.


Brown either...


1) - Leaves his house just after 12.40am, stays in the shop for 4 mins and then sees Stride before the assault around 12.45am, as he makes his way home. Stride then leaves Overcoat man to make her way to the yard before then being assaulted by BS man. Overcoat man is then Pipeman who is seen by Schwartz. This then perhaps supports the 2 men having been accomplices.

or...

2) - He leaves his house around 12.45am, stays in the shop for 4 mins, and then sees Stride after the assault just before 12.50am, as he makes his way home. Stride had come from the yard after having been assaulted and is then accosted on the corner as she tries to leave. This scenario means she then has to go back to the place she is then murdered.

Either way, it seems likely that Pipeman and Overcoat man are the same individual.


In terms of behaviour, Overcoat man seems more likely a suspect for having been the Ripper if option 2 is correct.


I agree with Tom that Schwartz's best advocate for his account having been true, lies in the idea that Pipeman was also Overcoat man; which is somewhat ironic considering that Schwartz and Brown's observations couldn't have happened at the exact same time.

[GBinOz]

Hi GB. Which unique sources have Brown saying 'I saw her about a quarter to one' and, most importantly, what is the sentence right after that? If you're referring to the Times, I've included that below.

Brown states in reply to the coroner that upon returning home to eat his supper he did not look at a clock.
I haven't seen that reply, only:
[Coroner] Did you hear anything more? - When I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Murder" and "Police." This was a quarter of an hour after I had got home. I did not look at any clock at the chandler's shop.

Earlier he stated that he returned home at 12:10 p.m. That specific timing suggests to me that upon returning home, he looked at a clock.
That was the inference to which I was referring in my post, but that was at 12:10, not after his trip to the chandler's shop. Did not most of his other time references include the word "about"?

Also, he lived in a boarding house and I would expect a clock to be on the wall.
Even if there was, it doesn't mean it was in sync with the the clock Schwartz used (see below).

As for Schwartz, he walked past more than one clock coming into Berner Street. He was able to fix the time to both Abberline's and Swanson's satisfaction as Swanson did not supply a time range, but the specific '12:45'. I'm sure you would agree that Abberline would have asked how he fixed his time and apparently received an answer that satisfied him.
I stand corrected on this point. Consulting the A-Z, Swanson's time is stated as a definitive 12:45.

But GB writes: "While we are unable to determine the time sync and estimating errors involved, it would appear on the face of it and short of evidence to the contrary, that Brown was looking at a woman he thought was Stride at the time that Schwartz was turning into Berner St from Commercial Road." Who is this 'we' you're referring to?
No! The "we" refers to our collective inability to know the extent of differences in clock time synchronisation and time interval estimations.

Theorists whose argument hinges (in part or whole) on Stride's killer being BS Man?
I am pursuing no such argument.

I appreciate that all the old books got it wrong, but the databases are richer now and allow for more resource material with which we can correct (and not perpetuate) the old errors. Here are four papers with unique reporting of James Brown. All a little different, but look at what they say in regards to when he left his house verses when he saw the couple. Bold/Italics are mine.

The Times: I saw the deceased about a quarter to 1 on Sunday morning. At that time I was going from my house to get some supper from a chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street. As I was going across the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board School in Fairclough-street.

Daily Telegraph: (Brown) I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know the deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last. (Coroner) Where were you? (Brown) I was going from my house to the chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School.

Morning Advertiser: On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.

The Star: [Brown] said that at about a quarter to one on Sunday morning he went out to get some supper at the corner of Berner-street, where there is a chandler's shop. He was gone three or four minutes, and as he returned he saw a man and woman standing by the Board School (which is just opposite the scene of the murder).

Let me say that I am absolutely fine if BS Man was the last man seen with Stride. I don't care. But it simply won't do any more to cherry pick sentences from the Times and pretend they say something they don't. You may not be aware how many times I've seen that pulled, but it's a lot. I'd respect an author (and I appreciate you're just posting on a forum and not writing a book and I do know that's not the same thing) who is willing to take ALL this on board - including the proof I published demolishing the 'young couple on the corner' red herring so favored by certain theorists in order to discredit Brown. Take ALL this on board, acknowledge its reality, and then craft a reasonable argument for BS Man as killer. You'll get a five star review from me. #freejamesbrown

I think you have misread my comments. I don't think that BSMan was her killer (nor Parcelman). If you read my post carefully you will see that I am actually agreeing with your "Brown before Schwartz" theory but questioning whether this could be the case if, as you argue, Brown left home at 12:45, when Schwartz was turning into Berner St, and was seeing Stride 4-5 minutes later.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I think we have some communication and interpretation differences here. I look at the reports in the Daily Telegraph, The Times, The Evening News and The Irish Times that say Brown saw Stride at 12:45 to mean exactly that. If this is then qualified by what he was doing at the time it doesn't alter that fact. However you have provided more examples, and promote his saying that he testified that he left his home at 12:45. The Star and the the Morning Advertiser suggest that he was seeing the woman he thought was Stride about five minutes later, on his return trip, around 12:50. If Schwartz turned into Berner St at 12:45, he was gone by 12:50. Doesn't that have the Schwartz incident occurring before Brown's sighting? But you say "To place Schwartz before Brown, as nearly every author aside from myself does, you have to actually ignore the sworn evidence of two witnesses."

[GBinOz]

It seems fairly clear to me that Brown and Schwartz cannot coexist in the same space at the same time.


Brown either...


1) - Leaves his house just after 12.40am, stays in the shop for 4 mins and then sees Stride before the assault around 12.45am, as he makes his way home. Stride then leaves Overcoat man to make her way to the yard before then being assaulted by BS man. Overcoat man is then Pipeman who is seen by Schwartz. This then perhaps supports the 2 men having been accomplices.

or...

2) - He leaves his house around 12.45am, stays in the shop for 4 mins, and then sees Stride after the assault just before 12.50am, as he makes his way home. Stride had come from the yard after having been assaulted and is then accosted on the corner as she tries to leave. This scenario means she then has to go back to the place she is then murdered.

Tom says "To place Schwartz before Brown, as nearly every author aside from myself does, you have to actually ignore the sworn evidence of two witnesses."

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what Tom is saying but it appears to me that Scenario 1 is Brown before Schwartz, and Scenario 2 is Schwartz before Brown, the latter being the scenario with which Tom disagrees.