An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Before I get accused of inventing characters “the PC. Schwartz” is an error. I don’t know how I managed it but I did.

It should read “..that PC Smith” of course.

Unless Schwartz was working under cover

No…we won’t go there.

[GBinOz]

Eagle didn’t mention seeing Lave or the couple across the street so the likeliest is that by the time that he returned Lave had gone back inside the club and that the couple had moved on and were out of sight.

I think that some caution needs to be exercised in assuming that named characters didn't see other named characters.

Eagle: "I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses.".

Lave: "He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.".

Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.".

Letchford: "I passed through the street at half-past 12 and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual".

The common theme is that witnesses did not see anything or anyone that could be considered as unusual or suspicious. Given that they could not know in advance what was about to happen, many people might have been seen without being noticed. As Eagle testified at the inquest:
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about in Berner-street? - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

So proposing times based on who saw, or didn't see, who may not in fact be altogether justified.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A strange point.

The women in the kitchen said that they heard nothing unusual; nothing that gave them any reason to stop and wonder if something untoward was going on. They were in a kitchen focused on doing whatever it was that they were doing; possibly going in and out. They would likely have been talking; maybe laughing and joking which wouldn’t be ideal for homing in on sounds coming from the street. They had men in the upstairs room singing songs that could be heard from the street. There was also a downstairs room so there was possibly men talking in there too. And you are somehow surprised that they didn’t hear or notice a woman making three not very loud sounds and a man shouting one word at a man who was just a few yards away.

If it surprises you that these women heard nothing them I’m afraid that you are easily surprised. You appear to find everyday occurrences remarkable. Things that we are all aware of as occurring day in, day out all around us you view as a miracle.

Possibly this, that and the other? Why not just quote the women?

[New Waterloo]

I think if parcelman or the man she was with earlier in the pub or in fact anyone of her contacts that night was JTR then there were ample opportunities to kill her in another more quiet location. Alley ways, other yards, passageways. Even I imagine quieter streets.

There seems no logical reason for choosing the club yard other than to make a point. In fact there were alleyways within a few yards of the club.

I mean think about it. Its just to active of a location. The only other reason is if he got a buzz out of perhaps getting caught, but that doesn't work with some of the murders. After all he killed at night to ensure that he wasn't so easily caught I would think.

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think that some caution needs to be exercised in assuming that named characters didn't see other named characters.

Eagle: "I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses.".

Lave: "He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.".

Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.".

Letchford: "I passed through the street at half-past 12 and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual".

The common theme is that witnesses did not see anything or anyone that could be considered as unusual or suspicious. Given that they could not know in advance what was about to happen, many people might have been seen without being noticed. As Eagle testified at the inquest:
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about in Berner-street? - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

So proposing times based on who saw, or didn't see, who may not in fact be altogether justified.

Fair point George.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Possibly this, that and the other? Why not just quote the women?

If you insist (the emboldened words are my own comments):


Daily News, Oct 2nd

Mrs. Deimschitz, the stewardess of the club, says:-Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning (So how long had she been there? Had she been elsewhere in the club and just entered the kitchen close to 1.00?) I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members (so she would have been talking to customers) who were singing upstairs (as I said). Up to then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper……..I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave. (Obviously she is referring to the yard and not out on the pavement which was where the incident took place)

Mila, the servant at the club, strongly corroborates the statement made by her mistress, and is equally convinced there were no sounds coming from the yard between 20 minutes to one and one o'clock.

Nothing about the two statements above suggests that those in the kitchen couldn’t possibly have failed to hear any noises from the street. Clearly, because they were talking about a woman being killed, they were considering fairly loud screams which we know from Schwartz didn’t occur.

And of course….Stride was definitely killed….and she was definitely killed sometime between 12.40 and 1.00….and she was definitely killed in Dutfield’s Yard….and definitely no one from inside the club heard this murder (so would you deduce that the murder occurred elsewhere?)……and yet you think it impossible that people couldn’t have failed to have heard an incident out on the street which would have been comprised of three not very loud exclamations and the word ‘Lipski.’

[GBinOz]

Fair point George.

I am becoming a little concerned that our traditional opposing viewpoint has run its course and we are becoming more aligned to a common consensus. I view the clock alignment question and the question of whether Stride was thrown to the ground or merely overbalanced when the grip of her counterpart was relaxed. Did one of us blink?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am becoming a little concerned that our traditional opposing viewpoint has run its course and we are becoming more aligned to a common consensus. I view the clock alignment question and the question of whether Stride was thrown to the ground or merely overbalanced when the grip of her counterpart was relaxed. Did one of us blink?

Are you getting worried George?