An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Probably this, that and the other? Why not just quote the women?

Of course that’s what you want because it limits the circumstances which helps fuel your thinking. When people give statements they don’t usually bother to describe the exact circumstances as this woman clearly didn’t. But we know that there was singing…we know that there was a downstairs room too…we know that she wasn’t the only person working at the club….we know that the incident occurred out on the street. And yet you want the circumstance to appear as if this woman was alone in a funeral parlour.

[Herlock Sholmes]

These people do ...

Eagle: If 15 minutes elapsed from the first man's departure and the Ripper's arrival, at what time do you suppose I tried the front door of the club? There was no woman in the gateway when I arrived back.

Mortimer: I didn't see any of this. When do you suppose I was at my doorstep?

Goldstein: I didn't see any of this either. When do you suppose I was walking though Berner St?

Brown: I'm almost certain I saw the deceased on my way home from the chandler's shop. Where do you suppose Stride was then, if not at the board school corner?

Diemschitz: I got home right on one o'clock. I didn't see any man leaving the yard, so I presume you suppose the Ripper had already left by then?

Kozebrodski: When I went into the yard with Mr Diemschitz, I saw the dead woman by candlelight. Her blood had already flowed down to the side door of the club. I think the murderer must have left a few minutes before Mr Diemschitz arrived back from the market. Do you agree?

After Pipeman left how long would we require as a minimum for BS man to have left and another man to arrive, kill Stride and leave? A minute, two?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Of course that’s what you want because it limits the circumstances which helps fuel your thinking.

You're right - I use the evidence as both a basis for and a constraint on my theories. This is as it should be but is in contrast to those who see the evidence as obstacles to be 'worked around'.

When people give statements they don’t usually bother to describe the exact circumstances as this woman clearly didn’t. But we know that there was singing…we know that there was a downstairs room too…we know that she wasn’t the only person working at the club….we know that the incident occurred out on the street. And yet you want the circumstance to appear as if this woman was alone in a funeral parlour.

I don't want the evidence to 'appear' anything - I want it to speak for itself and not be spun to keep it compatible with truth preferences.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

After Pipeman left how long would we require as a minimum for BS man to have left and another man to arrive, kill Stride and leave? A minute, two?

As you're already 3 minutes short without another man arriving, that extra minute or two minimum is a problem on top of a problem.

I'll leave it to you and c.d. to discuss the maximum.

[Tom_Wescott]

Times: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Morning Advertiser: I went in doors about midnight. I did not hear anything till I heard murder being called in the street just after one o’clock on the Sunday morning.

Insightful that no one bothered to check the press reports, or if they did, refrained from posting.

What might the women in the kitchen - behind that partially open door - have heard had there been an incident at the gateway, if Marshall could hear murder being called in the streets, while inside and block away?

We don't know when Marshall heard or who he heard it from. A crowd gathered rather quickly and word would have spread. The only ones who didn't hear about it right away were the constables on patrol in the area. Smith heard not a thing and only figured out something was wrong when he returned on his beat to find two constables and Spooner there. Blackwell's assistant had already been summoned and arrived right after Smith. Yet Marshall at #64 heard it. Weird. But that's why the Ripper selected Berner Street and Mitre Square. They were outside the hot zones. Same reason he moved into Bethnal Green after Tabram. After the double event the police figured this out and had areas like Castle Alley more carefully watched.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're right - I use the evidence as both a basis for and a constraint on my theories. This is as it should be but is in contrast to those who see the evidence as obstacles to be 'worked around'.



I don't want the evidence to 'appear' anything - I want it to speak for itself and not be spun to keep it compatible with truth preferences.

So…as I’ve always suspected and you believe that every time quoted should be taken as set-in-stone.

As long as that’s now established we can all understand the reason behind your thinking.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As you're already 3 minutes short without another man arriving, that extra minute or two minimum is a problem on top of a problem.

I'll leave it to you and c.d. to discuss the maximum.

Again, you are so rigidly obsessed with set-in-stone times.

[New Waterloo]

I have thought about this before and I know its been mentioned but impotant enough to be mentioned again. Its often remarked how Mrs Diemschutz didnt her anything although the door to the downstairs was ajar.

At the inquest Diemschutz says;

I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.

I am not sure if the several members were downstairs. I assume that what he means.

They would not have been quiet I am sure

For JTR starting to work on Stride knowing there were lots of people the other side of that door is a massive risk. Perhaps he knew all along of the massive risk but at all costs he needed the 'kill' to be at the Jewish club. Cut throat and away.

If we talk about him being disturbed anyone observing the scene would realise he would be disturbed much of the time. People on doorsteps, couples walking about, policemen, comings and goings, Lave exercising. He was disturbed well before going into that yard. He knew he had a tight time frame to pull this off.

He would be watching that yard, preparing his move

If it was JTR he knew what he was doing. If it was JTR who killed Stride he was no bumbling fool. He had his wits about him.

The killer is there. In that scene.

(bit like an Agatha Christie this)

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So…as I’ve always suspected and you believe that every time quoted should be taken as set-in-stone.

As long as that’s now established we can all understand the reason behind your thinking.

Have those women in the kitchen got you all hot and bothered?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For JTR starting to work on Stride knowing there were lots of people the other side of that door is a massive risk. Perhaps he knew all along of the massive risk but at all costs he needed the 'kill' to be at the Jewish club. Cut throat and away.

Although officially a Socialist club - as stated by Wess at the inquest - there were both Socialist and Anarchist members, and at the time of the murders tensions between the two groups existed and would continue to grow. Perhaps a politically motivated Anarchist decided he would cause the club some trouble.

[Abby Normal]

Have those women in the kitchen got you all hot and bothered?

What is that supposed to mean?

[GBinOz]

What is that supposed to mean?

I was wondering the same thing.