An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Whichever clock Herlock is implicitly basing his timeline on, is not relevant here. The issue is that Smith cannot be at the top Berner St as Diemschitz drives into the yard.

And he clearly wasn’t.

Diemschitz found the body.
Lamb arrived with Eagle.
Smith arrived.

Thats what happened…in that order. Insert whatever times you want. I’ve inserted mine. It fits. No problem at all.

All that has to be considered is that the clock that led Smith to believe that it was 1.00 wasn’t in line with the one that Diemschitz used. This isn’t science-fiction so I really can’t see why it causes you such problems.

[Herlock Sholmes]

How much of an issue are all these indeterminately accurate clocks?

Diemschitz: I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

If that clock could have been out by plus or minus ten minutes, we might expect witnesses 'guestimating' the time to be well out. Were they?

Mrs Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Mortimer: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out ... It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

Brown: I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.

That quarter of an hour being as of about 12:49, when he saw the couple at the corner. Why not as of 12:40 or 1:00am, if Brown is guessing the time based on his last look at an unsynchronised clock?

It's almost as though their brains were synchronised to a master clock.

They are all in the same time but some are taking their time estimates from different sources. And some would be based on estimating a length of time between the event and when they had last seen a clock.

You told me ages ago that you don’t think that times should be taken literally (if it was Michael and not you then I apologise) but you clearly do….when it suits you.

[The Rookie Detective]

How much of an issue are all these indeterminately accurate clocks?

Diemschitz: I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

If that clock could have been out by plus or minus ten minutes, we might expect witnesses 'guestimating' the time to be well out. Were they?

Mrs Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Mortimer: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out ... It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

Brown: I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.

That quarter of an hour being as of about 12:49, when he saw the couple at the corner. Why not as of 12:40 or 1:00am, if Brown is guessing the time based on his last look at an unsynchronised clock?

It's almost as though their brains were synchronised to a master clock.

Brilliant post, just brilliant!

[The Rookie Detective]

One of the issues regarding Smith is that he states 12.30am/12.35am or anytime between.

He himself says his beat takes 25 to 30 minutes.

And so based on his own words and timing; he should have been walking through Berner Street again at some point between 12.55am-1.05am.

Now unless BS man was the killer and the murder occurred nearer to 12.45am, then Pc Smith should have been walking along Berner Street right in the middle of the most likely kill time; 12.55-1am

So, the question is; where was he?

If Mortimer did indeed hear measured tramping of a policeman's footsteps, then It may have been Smith heading along Berner Street.
If that's the case and Mortimer then goes to her door, then could Goldstein have witnessed Smith walking North towards him?

Could Smith have cut Stride's throat and then headed north just as Goldstein was heading towards him?
Smith then darts west through the covered alleyway between 30 and 32 Berner Street, but not before Goldstein sees the officer with bloodied hands. He then walks hurriedly past Mortimer just as she opens her door and she sees him just moments after the murder.

Pc Smith then heads towards Backchurch Lane, disposing of the knife and finding a water source to wash his hands. He then rejoins his beat, but is nowhere near where he is meant to be.

That's why he's one of the last people to arrive at the murders scene, despite it being his beat.


Food for thought.

[GBinOz]

Whichever clock Herlock is implicitly basing his timeline on, is not relevant here. The issue is that Smith cannot be at the top Berner St as Diemschitz drives into the yard.

I suspect you have lost the plot here Andrew. Smith can indeed be at the top of Berner St at an estimated police time, while Diemshitz is there on on a completely different clock time, such as the Harris clock. Hershburg and Kozebrodsky appear to be yet on another time - possibly that of the clock in the club that Eagle testified he didn't observe. Lamb has Eagle and Kozebrodsky reporting the murder before 1AM (police time), verified by the fixed point officer still being on duty.

It is interesting that you should promote Eagle as an example of your times theory. You quote him as saying:
Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.
What is this "time I left home to return to the club"? Is this some time before the meeting? That doesn't seem likely as he says "return to the club". Here is his reported statement to The Evening News dated 1 Oct:
"I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets.".

It could be noted that here he doesn't mention calling in at his home on the the way back, and his recollection of his departure time is 12 midnight rather than 11:30 to 11:45. Either Eagle is very poor at estimations of time intervals and recollections of his actions on that night, or he is covering up.

[GBinOz]

One of the issues regarding Smith is that he states 12.30am/12.35am or anytime between.

He himself says his beat takes 25 to 30 minutes.

And so based on his own words and timing; he should have been walking through Berner Street again at some point between 12.55am-1.05am.

Now unless BS man was the killer and the murder occurred nearer to 12.45am, then Pc Smith should have been walking along Berner Street right in the middle of the most likely kill time; 12.55-1am

So, the question is; where was he?

If Mortimer did indeed hear measured tramping of a policeman's footsteps, then It may have been Smith heading along Berner Street.
If that's the case and Mortimer then goes to her door, then could Goldstein have witnessed Smith walking North towards him?

Could Smith have cut Stride's throat and then headed north just as Goldstein was heading towards him?
Smith then darts west through the covered alleyway between 30 and 32 Berner Street, but not before Goldstein sees the officer with bloodied hands. He then walks hurriedly past Mortimer just as she opens her door and she sees him just moments after the murder.

Pc Smith then heads towards Backchurch Lane, disposing of the knife and finding a water source to wash his hands. He then rejoins his beat, but is nowhere near where he is meant to be.

That's why he's one of the last people to arrive at the murders scene, despite it being his beat.


Food for thought.

I don't think so. What possible motive could Smith have had to murder Stride. I suggest that you might consider whether the footsteps that Mortimer heard were that of Goldstein, observed heading north by Mrs Artisan. A short appearance at The Spectacle Cafe to establish an alibi and a return back on Berner St to be observed by Mortimer glancing at the Yard on his way home.

[The Rookie Detective]

I don't think so. What possible motive could Smith have had to murder Stride. I suggest that you might consider whether the footsteps that Mortimer heard were that of Goldstein, observed heading north by Mrs Artisan. A short appearance at The Spectacle Cafe to establish an alibi and a return back on Berner St to be observed by Mortimer glancing at the Yard on his way home.

A fair point.

But it still doesn't answer the question; where was Smith?

Based on his very own timings, he should have been walking along Berner Street again between 12.55am - 1am.

So where was he and why wasn't his absence questioned?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don’t understand that point RD. He said that his beat took 25-30 minutes. So if he passed at 12.35, and his beat took him 30 minutes, then that puts him back at the top of Berner Street at around 1.05. He said 1.00 but maybe he was quoting the time that he mostly arrived at that spot or perhaps more likely, he was basing his 1.00 on a clock that he’d seen. This clock, if a different one to the one used by Diemschitz, could have been 5 minutes slower.

[c.d.]

I don’t understand that point RD.

Well I don't understand the point of this entire thread. Is it to establish the whereabouts of every single resident of Whitechapel at any given moment?
What conclusion or conclusions are trying to be reached? I think that goal got lost in the shuffle.

If it is to discredit Schwartz, I think the best you can do in that regard is to conclude that well, his story doesn't account for X. Maybe so, but that still doesn't tell us whether or not he was telling the truth (as he saw it). It can only cast doubt and then we are back to square one again.

My opinion.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Every single time, without exception, that is mentioned in this case, at any location and under any circumstances has to be questioned. I genuinely can’t understand any resistance to this. And yet we always find resistance. Any suggestion that all of these clocks and watches were synchronised cannot be accepted for a second. Then we have the fact that many are relying on a clock that they had seen some time ago - so how accurately have they estimated that period of time. Just look at the Berner Street witnesses…

Brown - He may have had a clock in his house but how would it have compared in synchronisation to Smith’s or Mortimer’s or the club’s? Or did he note the time that he got back from work and then estimate a period time before he left his house?

Lave - We get around 5 different versions of what he did, when he did it and how long he did it for. How can we judge his testimony? It’s impossible.

Eagle - He said that he arrived back at around 12.40 but how did he arrive at that time? Was it a clock in the club - if so, how was that clock synchronised to others? Was it a time that he saw at his girlfriend’s house and he just judged how long it took for him to walk back to the club? Did he judge his walk time accurately and how was his girlfriend’s house clock synchronised to the club clock?

Mortimer - We don’t know when she went on to her doorstep. We don’t know how long she remained there. We don’t know what time she went back inside. We don’t know what time she saw Goldstein. How can we dream of dismissing someone’s evidence based on her?

Diemschitz - How was the Baker’s clock synchronised to Smith’s or Lamb’s or the clubs?

Dr. Blackwell - His watch said 1.16 but how was it synchronised to Smith or Lamb’s for example?


So why are we questioned or criticised when we state the obvious - that we have to allow a reasonable margin for error on all times. Look at Halse and Long. Both said that they had passed along Goulston Street at 2.00 and yet they didn’t see each other. Was one of them lying or was it a case of watches or clocks being poorly synchronised? All times must be taken with a healthy pinch of salt. Even today, with all of our technology we still find poorly synchronised timepieces so why is there resistance to the same phenomena occurring, to a greater extent, nearly 140 years ago?

[The Rookie Detective]

I will repeat for those who may have a slight difficulty in understanding...


Pc Smith stated he passed along Berner Street sometime between 12.30-12.35am.

As a police officer we can have reasonable faith in his time being as close to accurate as we can get.

He also stated his beat took him between 25 to 30 minutes to complete a circuit.


Based on his own statement/words, his presence in Berner St between 12.30am-12.35am would have meant that his next rotation should have brought him back around to the same spot 25 - 30 minutes later.

12.30am + 25 mins = 12.55am
12.30am + 30 mins = 1am
12.35am + 25 mins = 1am
12.35am + 30 mins = 1.05am

As I said; Smith should have been walking back along Berner Street again between 12.55am - 1.05am

So, I will ask again; where was Smith?

One place he certainly wasn't; was in Berner Street.

Now unless Pc Lamb took over his beat, and Lamb replaces Smith as being at the top of Berner Street (roughly at the same time Smith should have been) then we have a potential issue with Smith's validity as a witness.

Either his timings were off and even a policeman couldn't give an accurate account of timing in relation to his location, or he wasn't completely truthful in his account.


Where was Smith?


No hidden agenda, no conspiracy theory, no trying to be awkward... just a simple question...


Where was Smith?



Of course, we could just take the usual approach of stamping down on asking questions so to avoid even attempting to find answers; for fear of upsetting those who find it annoying and irritating.


Where was Smith?

Regards


RD


p.s. no conspiracy theory intended

[Lewis C]

I will repeat for those who may have a slight difficulty in understanding...


Pc Smith stated he passed along Berner Street sometime between 12.30-12.35am.

As a police officer we can have reasonable faith in his time being as close to accurate as we can get.

He also stated his beat took him between 25 to 30 minutes to complete a circuit.


Based on his own statement/words, his presence in Berner St between 12.30am-12.35am would have meant that his next rotation should have brought him back around to the same spot 25 - 30 minutes later.

12.30am + 25 mins = 12.55am
12.30am + 30 mins = 1am
12.35am + 25 mins = 1am
12.35am + 30 mins = 1.05am

As I said; Smith should have been walking back along Berner Street again between 12.55am - 1.05am

So, I will ask again; where was Smith?

One place he certainly wasn't; was in Berner Street.

Now unless Pc Lamb took over his beat, and Lamb replaces Smith as being at the top of Berner Street (roughly at the same time Smith should have been) then we have a potential issue with Smith's validity as a witness.

Either his timings were off and even a policeman couldn't give an accurate account of timing in relation to his location, or he wasn't completely truthful in his account.


Where was Smith?


No hidden agenda, no conspiracy theory, no trying to be awkward... just a simple question...


Where was Smith?



Of course, we could just take the usual approach of stamping down on asking questions so to avoid even attempting to find answers; for fear of upsetting those who find it annoying and irritating.


Where was Smith?

Regards


RD


p.s. no conspiracy theory intended

So you're granting that Smith should have been there by 1:05, and Herlock is estimating that he got back at 1:06. If the clocks weren't perfectly synchronized and people's abilities to report the exact time their clocks say aren't perfect, then a one minute discrepancy isn't a problem.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I will repeat for those who may have a slight difficulty in understanding...


Pc Smith stated he passed along Berner Street sometime between 12.30-12.35am.

As a police officer we can have reasonable faith in his time being as close to accurate as we can get.

He also stated his beat took him between 25 to 30 minutes to complete a circuit.


Based on his own statement/words, his presence in Berner St between 12.30am-12.35am would have meant that his next rotation should have brought him back around to the same spot 25 - 30 minutes later.

12.30am + 25 mins = 12.55am
12.30am + 30 mins = 1am
12.35am + 25 mins = 1am
12.35am + 30 mins = 1.05am

As I said; Smith should have been walking back along Berner Street again between 12.55am - 1.05am

So, I will ask again; where was Smith?

One place he certainly wasn't; was in Berner Street.

Now unless Pc Lamb took over his beat, and Lamb replaces Smith as being at the top of Berner Street (roughly at the same time Smith should have been) then we have a potential issue with Smith's validity as a witness.

Either his timings were off and even a policeman couldn't give an accurate account of timing in relation to his location, or he wasn't completely truthful in his account.


Where was Smith?


No hidden agenda, no conspiracy theory, no trying to be awkward... just a simple question...


Where was Smith?



Of course, we could just take the usual approach of stamping down on asking questions so to avoid even attempting to find answers; for fear of upsetting those who find it annoying and irritating.


Where was Smith?

Regards


RD


p.s. no conspiracy theory intended

OK, so now it appears that you have an issue with me RD. The only thing that I find annoying and irritating is anyone with an allergy to a down-to-earth explanation. Why does everything have to be over complicated?

Smith’s beat is impossible to recreate exactly but it took in Backchurch Lane and Commercial Road as far as the top of Gower’s Walk so I’d suggest that he was somewhere in that area when Diemschitz and then Lamb into Berner Street. That Smith arrived after them both is simply a fact. They couldn’t all have gone into Berner Street at 1.00. Therefore it’s an issue of times…as I’ve been saying for the past 5 years or so. Make a plus and minus allowance and the problem is solved.