An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[GBinOz]

Hi NW,

I have the ideal map that you need but I can’t upload it. No doubt someone will be able to upload a copy of the map with the street numbers and coloured dots noting significant spots for you.

Location of Spooner’s house.

Ok, you are in Fairclough Street leaning against the Board School wall with your left shoulder and facing east. You walk east on Fairclough and cross over Batty Street on your left. Then past the next block of buildings (with Brown’s house in the middle of that block) then past The Beehive on the corner and across Christian Street to the next block which starts with number 37 on the corner. Cross over Fairclough Street when you get to 37 and you’re at another small block of buildings. Spooner’s number 26 is half way along that block. You would have been able to see The Beehive easily from Spooner’s front door. He would also have been able to see Brown’s front door.

I am wondering, my friend, if you may have possibly neglected to mention that #26 is actually on the opposite side of the road to the Beehive and #37?

[New Waterloo]

Thanks Herlock and GBinOz. The reason I asked was to satisfy myself that it is a reasonably short section of road where we have both Stride and her man and Spooner and his girlfriend with Brown only mentioning one couple. It is a problem in my mind. Also I am struggling a bit about when Spooner said he and his girlfriend were standing by the Beehive for quite a long time. Lets be honest. After the evening out there would be some kissing maybe (etc) before saying goodbye. It doesnt seem likely to me for this to take place outside the Beehive. Certainly not virtually opposite Spooners home address would it? I would have thought finding a secluded spot somewhere on route back to girlfriends home. she just doesn't go home by magic. When Spooner goes to Dutfields yard. She either gos with him or gos home. Its hard to believe that he would leave her when its just announced somebodies been murdered. Unless she lived close to where they were.
NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

May not be of any importance but interesting none the less that the couple seen by Brown are standing very close (opposite side of road) to where Spooner lived. That being 26 Fairclough Street. Cant be certain as my map doesn't have house numbers on. Not sure if its significant. Could anybody have a look please and indicate where his house was in relation to the Board school.
Thank you It would be appreciated.
NW

Took me a while to remember, but Jon S. has done some great map work ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/816510-the-stride-murder?p=817414#post817414

Looks like 26 Fairclough was between Christian and Grove streets.

[New Waterloo]

Thanks NotBlamed for the map. When Spooner runs to Berner Street he leaves his girlfriend very vulnerable. I suppose she could have been living at his address (26 Fairclough) That's why I am thinking an address for her would be useful and will get back to all if I find one. I am taking a gamble that the girlfriend was the person Spooner married . I think her maiden name was Catherine Sullivan.
NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am wondering, my friend, if you may have possibly neglected to mention that #26 is actually on the opposite side of the road to the Beehive and #37?

Hi George,

I did say to cross over the road when getting to number 37. Number 37 is on the same side as the pub.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks NotBlamed for the map. When Spooner runs to Berner Street he leaves his girlfriend very vulnerable. I suppose she could have been living at his address (26 Fairclough) That's why I am thinking an address for her would be useful and will get back to all if I find one. I am taking a gamble that the girlfriend was the person Spooner married . I think her maiden name was Catherine Sullivan.
NW

Consider #74 in the JtRF thread I previously linked to. Perhaps Spooner's lady friend made her own way down to Berner St, after Edward ran there. This Daily News report has recently been recently discussed:

A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

There must be some possibility that Spooner's lady friend is the subject of this report. Spooner referred to being with her for 25 minutes, and this report says 20 minutes - quite similar. The report also says, "she said", but she is neither named nor quoted. Perhaps what she said is second-hand, courtesy of Fanny Mortimer. So then, how to explain this:

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

The 20 yards is a big problem for the theory, right? Well, what if the young lady had mentioned standing outside the Beehive but only referred to it generically as "the pub around the corner", and Mortimer mistook this for meaning the Nelson. That would mean there was no other 'sweetheart' couple at the board school corner. Who then, did James Brown see on his way home from the chandler's shop?

Brown: I have seen the deceased in the mortuary. On Sunday morning last about 12.45 I went from my own house to get some supper from a chandler's shop at the corner of Berner street. I was in the shop a few minutes and then went home. As I crossed the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board school in Fairclough street. I was in the road just by the kerb and they were up against the wall. I heard the woman say, "Not tonight, some other night." This made me look round at them. I am almost certain the deceased is the woman who spoke.

If this theory is wrong, and there was indeed another couple at that corner, why are they seemingly never heard from again?

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I did say to cross over the road when getting to number 37. Number 37 is on the same side as the pub.

You're quite right. Humble apologies.

[New Waterloo]

I have re read and re read Spooners Inquest evidence and in particular what he says about times. He states that he left a pub on commercial road (some reports say this was a pub on the corner of Settle street and Commercial Road which would be the Gloster Arms) at closing time 12 midnight.

He then states he and his girlfriend walked quietly to the Beehive pub corner.

However. He says that they were at that spot from 12.30 till 1.

Where were they from 12 till 12.30? Beehive to Commercial Road is not very far. He is trying to fill time gaps in my mind.

Realistically if he joins the searchers at 1.10am thats over an hour from when he left the commercial road pub. His evidence about Strides body is very very precise. His timing is a mess and that is a bit suspicious to me

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

I find it odd that despite Spooner having worked as a professional horse keeper (for a biscuit company) he makes no mention of Diemschitz's horse that was still in the yard.

Of all the individuals at the scene that night, Spooner was the one man who knew horses.

He certainly appears to have had the confidence to take charge.

He physically touched the body after all; despite not being a member of the club.

Only a small and likely insignificant observation, but interesting nonetheless.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Rookie I agree with you about Spooner not mentioning the horse and cart. In fact I am not sure if anyone says anything about the horse and cart on their initial arrival. Not sure but were there stables at the back? Although considering Diemschutz ran for help (I think he said he left the horse standing in the yard) it would have been there on his return and its strange it doesn't get a mention by people attending the scene.

As for Spooner at the scene. Yes very confident and describes what he saw in the yard with precision, in fact like a professional, which is at odds regarding what he says about times.

Not really sure about the lifting of her chin either. Presumably to check if she was still alive and also in the darkness of the yard is able to say very quickly that Stride had a piece of paper in her hand and what the contents were. Had the cachous spilled out of the paper when the body was found. (cant recall) Otherwise he had XRAY vision!

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Rookie I agree with you about Spooner not mentioning the horse and cart. In fact I am not sure if anyone says anything about the horse and cart on their initial arrival. Not sure but were there stables at the back? Although considering Diemschutz ran for help (I think he said he left the horse standing in the yard) it would have been there on his return and its strange it doesn't get a mention by people attending the scene.

What did you do with the pony in the meantime?-I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.

What happened to the horse and cart after that, is a bit of a mystery. Presumably someone moved them to the backyard, after Diemschitz runs off to find a policeman.

As for Spooner at the scene. Yes very confident and describes what he saw in the yard with precision, in fact like a professional, which is at odds regarding what he says about times.

Not really sure about the lifting of her chin either. Presumably to check if she was still alive and also in the darkness of the yard is able to say very quickly that Stride had a piece of paper in her hand and what the contents were. Had the cachous spilled out of the paper when the body was found. (cant recall) Otherwise he had XRAY vision!

In #488 you say "I have re read and re read Spooners Inquest evidence...". Have you noticed anything odd about the following?

Spooner: I noticed she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned to her breast.

Which hand was the paper in?

By the way, in #484 you asked about Spooner leaving his girlfriend very vulnerable. In #486 I gave a detailed reply. No comment?

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're quite right. Humble apologies.

No problem George. I have no sense of direction so I was expecting to have got it wrong somehow.

[The Rookie Detective]

What's also interesting about Spooner, is that he was a violent man.

In January 1889, just over 3 months after Stride's murder, a group of men (that included Spooner) ambushed a Jewish horse and cart driver named Isaac Lazarus; along with Issac's wife and father-in-law, in Christian Street, in broad daylight.

Spooner allegedly grabbed Isaac by the hair and threw him to the ground.

Spooner and another man also struck Issac's wife before stealing the cart by driving it off.

It was later found abandoned outside a police station in Stepney.


I would suggest that a man who is confident enough to be seen violently throwing a Jewish man to the floor and then striking his wife, in Christian Street, just a few months after the murder of Stride, is someone who warrants a closer look.


His brazen behaviour speaks of a man who thought he was untouchable.

When we look at his peculiar timings stated for the night Stride was murdered, I would suggest that he should be considered a key person of interest in the case.


One newspaper reported that Spooner was accompanied by a large group of men; around 30, when the assault on Isaac Lazarus took place.


And to abandon the stolen cart outside Arbour Square police station in Stepney, is perhaps indicative of a man who was taking the p***.


There is nothing likeable or trustworthy about him.

[New Waterloo]

Apologies NotBlamed for not getting back to you. Thanks for the info.

Its taking me a bit of time to absorb the information. Yes I see what you are saying. I think there is some reason to believe that the young girl making the report is Spooner's girlfriend. I am thinking after reading other comments that the girl was standing with her boyfriend North of the club. Maybe in Hampshire Court or even Sanders Street or Battys gardens the other side of the road.

The reason for this is that she uses the phrase a 'bisecting thoroughfare' not a street. It appears she does not mention the Beehive, perhaps they move to that point later through the thoroughfare or they have made there way there after leaving the Beehive. A better location for an embrace maybe.

Spooner makes a point that they were at the Beehive for quite a while. maybe they were maybe not. What we do know with certainty is that when the 'searchers' found Spooner he was close to his home address and previously him and his girlfriend were walking through the area one way or another.

Still thinking about the couple Brown saw. I don't think that was Spooner and his girlfriend. Wrong end of street for me.

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

Apologies NotBlamed for not getting back to you. Thanks for the info.

Its taking me a bit of time to absorb the information. Yes I see what you are saying. I think there is some reason to believe that the young girl making the report is Spooner's girlfriend. I am thinking after reading other comments that the girl was standing with her boyfriend North of the club. Maybe in Hampshire Court or even Sanders Street or Battys gardens the other side of the road.

The reason for this is that she uses the phrase a 'bisecting thoroughfare' not a street. It appears she does not mention the Beehive, perhaps they move to that point later through the thoroughfare or they have made there way there after leaving the Beehive. A better location for an embrace maybe.

Spooner makes a point that they were at the Beehive for quite a while. maybe they were maybe not. What we do know with certainty is that when the 'searchers' found Spooner he was close to his home address and previously him and his girlfriend were walking through the area one way or another.

Still thinking about the couple Brown saw. I don't think that was Spooner and his girlfriend. Wrong end of street for me.

NW

So unless there were 3 couples, then Brown either saw Spooner and his gf, or he saw Stride with Overcoat man either before or after she was assaulted by BS man....or Stride was Spooner's date.


3 couples
Spooner and his gf
Spooner and Stride
Overcoat man and Stride


Take your pick