An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[New Waterloo]

I do believe we are moving forward with this. Many of us including myself may have to change their own theories a bit. Accept what we find.

Lots of things we will never completely confirm or reject but common sense must prevail.

For example 4 witnesses that night describe the man with Stride as wearing either a Morning Coat or Cutaway Coat, being Best and Gardiner, PC Smith and Marshall. I believe these coats are very similar and a little more expensive.

Brown suggests the man he saw with the female outside the Board School was wearing a long overcoat.

Considering Brown lives in the house connected to the Beehive pub and sees nothing of Spooner and his girlfriend on his walk out and back that the couple he sees is Spooner and a woman. That appears to be what the evidence in the statements is telling us.

In fact there is no evidence or statements from anybody saying that they saw Spooner and his girlfriend, including from the people who see Spooner and he goes with them back to the yard.

Just an example of where the evidence leads us

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

So you're saying the reporter just made it up? Are you suggesting then that entire news report should be ignored because the reporter conveniently chose to report on what she said in the 3rd person (as one generally does when reporting on what another person says).

Ok, that pretty much demonstrates that Mortimer is lying, since Stride was murdered somewhere between 12:30 and 1:00, and Fanny never sees her, she only sees Goldstein in Berner Street and he's by himself, so he couldn't have murdered Stride.

Given Fanny has view of the street from 12:30-1:00, never sees Stride and a man together, then presumably you have Stride dead before 12:30, which means her body is there when PC Smith does his patrol. Conveniently he seems to have missed seeing her, and conveniently Fanny must have popped in side when club members returned as she did see them (but conveniently she couldn't have popped in to miss Schwartz, because she was on her doorstep from 12:30 - 1:00).



Sigh, the "moving around" thing again. Times as stated by a witness are not carved in stone reality, they are estimates given from memory by a person who had no reason to specifically encode the time when things were happening. Clocks did not hook up to the internet and automatically sync to a common time, so two witnesses are in all likelihood basing their memories on clocks that didn't even read the same time in the first place! The times and durations witnesses state are starting points of information. To put together the events surrounding the case you have to try and chain together the sequence of events in order. You can then try and get an objective measure of how long different events would take (i.e. how long would it take someone to walk down Berner Street? You use an average walking speed and work it out based upon the distance. For a more thorough evaluation, you select a range of speeds covering slower and faster walkers). If you are able to string together a chain of events for which you have objective measures for their durations, taking into account the tendency for people to overestimate short time intervals, you can then pick one of the witness statements of actual time that you trust, and from there calculate the times of the whole chain of events. You can even test your sequence by comparing the times you calculate with the witness statements to see if the estimation and the statement are within the sort of error range typically associated with witness statements.

There's no "convenient" moving about of anything, there is simply the recognition that witness statements are not the equivalent of CCTV footage and so the actual events are in all probability going to differ in some ways from the statements.

What is convenient is the fact that witnesses do make errors as it allows one to dismiss a witness that interferes with their theory by selecting some other witness (or in this case, a different version of what the witness says) and claiming the version chosen is the right one - even though it conflicts with almost everything.

- Jeff

Some nice points Jeff and i appreciate your feedback.

There is no doubt that Mortimer was exaggerating the time she says she was at her door.

Her claim that she stood there for nearly all of the time simply doesn't work, but not because of Schwartz. There is no way that she would have stood at her door for nearly half an hour considering the weather conditions and the fact she only saw one man pass by.

I don't believe she was deliberately lying, but she certainly appears to have inflated her importance as a witness so to speak.

There's no way she could have been standing there before Eagle returned, or before PC Smith had passed through. Mortimer never saw anyone enter the yard, but we know that Lave, Eagle and Stride must have gone through that gateway at some point.

In terms of timings; I do understand why there are sighs of frustration from those who want to put the thing to bed, as it must be frustrating when someone likes me comes along to challenge established biases towards the double event.
I just feel that moving everything around so as to try and make sense of all the inconsistencies, is not the best way to search for the truth in all this.

But okay, I am willing to go with it.

I mean, why not?

...

So let's go with the sequence as based on not moving anything around and expanding the times to cover the perception that most people at the time were unable to understand how to accurately tell the time within the nearest 5 minutes.
...an abbreviated version of course...


Circa 11pm - John Best and John Gardener see Stride at the Bricklayers Arms. They observe Stride and her male companion head south (towards Batty Street/Christian Street) Nothing going on except lots of smooching

Circa 11.35pm - 11.50am - Morris Eagle leaves the club to escort his female companion home.

Circa 11.45pm- 11.50am - William Marshall sees Stride with "Anything but your prayers" man. They walk south directly past Marshall and head towards Ellen Street; away from the club. Nothing going on except some smooching. Sounds familiar.

Circa Midnight - Marshall goes back inside his house.

Circa Midnight- 12.10am - PC Smith walks along Berner Street as per his regular beat.

Circa 11.30pm - Midnight - The majority of the club members leave the building by exiting through the front entrance.

Circa 12.05am - 12.30am - Stride walks back up the street past Marshall's house and across the junction of Faircloth and Berner Street, or up Backchurch Lane, or Christian Street.

Circa 12.15am - Wess leaves the club via the front door, along with his brother and another man. Just before leaving Wess checks the printers in the yard and notices someone reading inside. As he walks back towards the gate and into the side door he glimpses at the gateway but sees nothing unusual.

Circa !2.30am, Charles Letchford of number 30 walks along Berner street,nothing much happening in the way of drama.

Circa 12.30am-12-38am PC Smith walks along Berner Street and sees Stride talking with a man by the gateway; Parcelman. Nothing dodgy going on so far.

Circa 12.30am-12.40am - Joseph Lave comes out the side door of the club to get some fresh air in the wind and rain. He goes as far as the street and then goes back inside. he notices nothing suspicious

Circa 12.35am- 12.40am - Morris Eagle returns to the club, tries the front door which was locked at 12.30am, and so tries the side door instead. He notices nothing dodgy going on but eludes to there having been others in the street whom he paid no attention to.

Circa 12.45am - Schwartz walks down Berner Street and sees BS Man walking ahead of him. He witnesses BS Man then attack Stride by trying to initially pull her away from the gate before throwing her down on the pathway by the gates. Stride screams 3 times (but not very loudly) Schwartz goes to cross the road when the assailant spots him and shouts "LIPSKI!" Another man approaches and Schwartz notices he has a pipe. Schwartz runs away, with Pipeman following briefly before turning back. According to Swanson, Schwartz runs as far as the railway line, meaning that Schwartz ran south towards Ellen Street, but then continues to run past his home address and instead continue running all the way to the railway line (either by running down Backchurch Lane or running south down Christian Street.

Circa 12.40am - James Brown (get on up) walks to the Chandler's Shop at the corner of Berner and Fairclough Street. He is in there no more than 5 minutes before heading home again.

Circa 12.40am - 12.44am - A man and a woman (later identified as Stride by Brown), arrive at the corner of the board school.

Circa 12.45am - As he walks back east, he looks to his left and sees a man talking with a woman that he is almost certain is Stride, at the corner of the board school. he hears her say to the man "no, not tonight, some other night" as he walks past. He goes home.

Circa 12.50am - Miss Letchford is at her door at 30 Berner Street, on the corner of the alleyway leading west through into Backchurch Lane. She notices nothing unusual.

Circa 12.41am - 12,44am or 12.46am - 12.58am - Mortimer witnesses a man walk down the street with a black bag. This man is Goldstein.

Circa 1am - Stride is found by Diemschitz.


Circa 12.30am - 1am - Mortimer is at her door, but only sees 1 man the entire time

Circa 12.40am - after 1am - A young man and his female companion are at the corner of the Board school. They hear nothing and see nothing dodgy the entire time they're there.

Circa 11.30 - 12.59am - Packer serves Grapes to a couple who then go and stand almost opposite him, across the road, in the rain and wind for over half an hour, before they walk towards the club and out of his view.



Circa 12.36am - 12.59am - Stride is murdered by a person unknown.


Note that anything that occurred after Stride is found, is not contextually relevant when discussing the timeline up to the moment of her being found by Dipschitz.



We only need to account for Parcelman, Bs Man, Pipeman, Marshall's man and Brown's man.

Oh and Bricklayer's Arms man.




But anyway, now that we have a timeline, we can agree that it works without any questions or irregularities, and we can put it to bed once and for all?



Hmmm...


Really?!

[JeffHamm]

Mortimer never said she was at her door for about 10 minutes.

That particular statement appeared in the press in the 3rd person. The statement also included Mortimer hearing the measured footsteps pass her door.

So you're saying the reporter just made it up? Are you suggesting then that entire news report should be ignored because the reporter conveniently chose to report on what she said in the 3rd person (as one generally does when reporting on what another person says).

However, in the actual statement that she made in the 1st person context, she clearly states that she stood at her door for nearly the whole time (between 12.30am -1am)

Ok, that pretty much demonstrates that Mortimer is lying, since Stride was murdered somewhere between 12:30 and 1:00, and Fanny never sees her, she only sees Goldstein in Berner Street and he's by himself, so he couldn't have murdered Stride.

Given Fanny has view of the street from 12:30-1:00, never sees Stride and a man together, then presumably you have Stride dead before 12:30, which means her body is there when PC Smith does his patrol. Conveniently he seems to have missed seeing her, and conveniently Fanny must have popped in side when club members returned as she did see them (but conveniently she couldn't have popped in to miss Schwartz, because she was on her doorstep from 12:30 - 1:00).

Now whether she was later re-interviewed and her words being taken down and submitted in the 3rd person by the reporter, then she may have indeed amended her statement. But that's mere conjecture and the idea that Fanny ever said that she was only at her door for 10 minutes, is not something that can override what she initially said.
It's more convenient for the likes of Schwartz of course, but if we look at what she said, then we must accept that she did spend much of the time at her door, or that she was exaggerating her involvement for the sake of getting in the press.

What we do know for certain is that she did spend some time at her door because she did observe Goldstein. Otherwise, he would of had no reason to have gone to the police.

If we look at what all of the witnesses actually said, then we are left with some alarming oddities, that can only be explained away; in part; by moving everyone's timings around, just so that Schwartz's account can fit into the nights events.

Sigh, the "moving around" thing again. Times as stated by a witness are not carved in stone reality, they are estimates given from memory by a person who had no reason to specifically encode the time when things were happening. Clocks did not hook up to the internet and automatically sync to a common time, so two witnesses are in all likelihood basing their memories on clocks that didn't even read the same time in the first place! The times and durations witnesses state are starting points of information. To put together the events surrounding the case you have to try and chain together the sequence of events in order. You can then try and get an objective measure of how long different events would take (i.e. how long would it take someone to walk down Berner Street? You use an average walking speed and work it out based upon the distance. For a more thorough evaluation, you select a range of speeds covering slower and faster walkers). If you are able to string together a chain of events for which you have objective measures for their durations, taking into account the tendency for people to overestimate short time intervals, you can then pick one of the witness statements of actual time that you trust, and from there calculate the times of the whole chain of events. You can even test your sequence by comparing the times you calculate with the witness statements to see if the estimation and the statement are within the sort of error range typically associated with witness statements.

There's no "convenient" moving about of anything, there is simply the recognition that witness statements are not the equivalent of CCTV footage and so the actual events are in all probability going to differ in some ways from the statements.

What is convenient is the fact that witnesses do make errors as it allows one to dismiss a witness that interferes with their theory by selecting some other witness (or in this case, a different version of what the witness says) and claiming the version chosen is the right one - even though it conflicts with almost everything.

- Jeff

[The Rookie Detective]

We do have a scenario whereby the enigmatic Joseph Lave was the man who was seen assaulting Stride, and that he went back into the club after Morris Eagle.

Morris Eagle walks past them as they're talking and heads inside via the side door.

Nobody knows where Parcelman went or who he was, but it could be a case of him having been a club member.

Namely Joseph Lave.

After Pc Smith leaves the scene, Parcelman may have been the man who assaulted Stride by throwing her down onto the floor.

Schwartz may have indeed witnessed the assault at 12.42am, just after Eagle has gone inside.

But seeing as Schwartz is a local and Lave has seen him, Schwartz is threatened into giving a faux description of the alleged assailant so as to place the blame on a drunken gentile randomly assaulting Stride, rather than her having been attacked by Lave.

When we consider the "witness"...it may have indeed been Schwartz.

But Schwartz doesn't just witness an assault, he sees Lave cut her throat.

Schwartz is compelled to go to the police, but chooses to give a false statement through fear of reprisal.

The reason why Schwartz doesn't appear at the inquest, is because he becomes the police's prime witness, who is then shielded from the public inquest. The press initially report the story early on, but the name Schwartz appears later. Perhaps Schwartz is a name given to the man who came forward and his identity is protected by being given a false name.


So the murder is witnessed by Schwartz

Stride is murdered before Mortimer comes to her door just moments after it's reported that she hears footsteps pass her door. The footsteps being the killer leaving the scene.

We then have Mortimer at her door from 12.44am.

Stride is already dead in the yard.

Pipeman is an invention to again divert attention from the fact that Schwartz witnesses a Jew from the club cut Stride's throat.

The idea of the assault, which clearly doesn't take place because it's not witnessed, seen, or heard, is a cover story for the truth that Lave dispatched Stride quickly and silently in the dark just at the moment that Schwartz walks past and sees it all.


I mean...it's pretty thin...but not impossible.

haha!

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Lewis,

If we consider that she didn’t see Morris Eagle walking past her front door at around 12.40 then that’s a third of the ‘nearly the whole time’ gone in one go.

Precisely.

The fact that Mortimer doesn't see Eagle, Lave, Pc Smith or Stride, means that she must have come to her door after 12.40am.

If she stood at her door for nearly the whole time, that could account for approximately 17 minutes between 12.41am to 12.58am.

17 minutes being the majority of the time (17 out of 30)

I accept that it's nowhere near the "whole" time, but as long as it was longer than 15 minutes, then technically it still works as the majority of time.

It's not what she said, but there's a distinct difference between 17 minutes and only 10 minutes. Only one is applicable to the majority of time covering a half an hour period.

I don't necessarily believe that Mortimer was speaking about duration of time, but rather that she was at her door for the majority of the time period relative to her going to her door initially, to the point she went back inside before hearing the commotion outside a few minutes later when the body had just been found. In other words, she perceived the time she spent the majority of the time at her door, relative to the nights events that unfolded.

On that basis, Mortimer could have been at her door anywhere up to a maximum of 17 to 18 minutes based on the timings of Eagle and Diemschitz respectively.

Regardless, her statement clashes directly with Schwartz's account, and so both of them can't be right or accurate in what they said.

I am sceptical of Mortimer, however, when we add to the mix that she later spoke to a couple who had stated they had been at the corner of the street, Brown having also seen a couple standing there, plus the fact that Diemschitz wife didn't hear anything from her location in the kitchen at the time of the alleged assault at 12.45am, then we begin to sway the balance towards Mortimer's word holding some grain of truth.

[Lewis C]

Mortimer never said she was at her door for about 10 minutes.

That particular statement appeared in the press in the 3rd person. The statement also included Mortimer hearing the measured footsteps pass her door.

However, in the actual statement that she made in the 1st person context, she clearly states that she stood at her door for nearly the whole time (between 12.30am -1am)

Now whether she was later re-interviewed and her words being taken down and submitted in the 3rd person by the reporter, then she may have indeed amended her statement. But that's mere conjecture and the idea that Fanny ever said that she was only at her door for 10 minutes, is not something that can override what she initially said.
It's more convenient for the likes of Schwartz of course, but if we look at what she said, then we must accept that she did spend much of the time at her door, or that she was exaggerating her involvement for the sake of getting in the press.

What we do know for certain is that she did spend some time at her door because she did observe Goldstein. Otherwise, he would of had no reason to have gone to the police.

If we look at what all of the witnesses actually said, then we are left with some alarming oddities, that can only be explained away; in part; by moving everyone's timings around, just so that Schwartz's account can fit into the nights events.

We don't know what she actually said. Both versions are press accounts. Neither overrides the other. Just because one writer phrases what he wrote in the first person and the other phrases it in the first person doesn't mean the former is more reliable. I don't think that matters much, but I also don't think we know which is the earlier account. Both are from October 1st, so they're virtually simultaneous.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Herlock. I would add that in one account of Fanny's statement, she said she was at her door nearly the whole time. In another, she said it was for about 10 minutes. If the 10 minutes account is the more accurate one, that would make it even easier to account for Fanny not seeing Schwartz.

Mortimer never said she was at her door for about 10 minutes.

That particular statement appeared in the press in the 3rd person. The statement also included Mortimer hearing the measured footsteps pass her door.

However, in the actual statement that she made in the 1st person context, she clearly states that she stood at her door for nearly the whole time (between 12.30am -1am)

Now whether she was later re-interviewed and her words being taken down and submitted in the 3rd person by the reporter, then she may have indeed amended her statement. But that's mere conjecture and the idea that Fanny ever said that she was only at her door for 10 minutes, is not something that can override what she initially said.
It's more convenient for the likes of Schwartz of course, but if we look at what she said, then we must accept that she did spend much of the time at her door, or that she was exaggerating her involvement for the sake of getting in the press.

What we do know for certain is that she did spend some time at her door because she did observe Goldstein. Otherwise, he would of had no reason to have gone to the police.

If we look at what all of the witnesses actually said, then we are left with some alarming oddities, that can only be explained away; in part; by moving everyone's timings around, just so that Schwartz's account can fit into the nights events.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock. I would add that in one account of Fanny's statement, she said she was at her door nearly the whole time. In another, she said it was for about 10 minutes. If the 10 minutes account is the more accurate one, that would make it even easier to account for Fanny not seeing Schwartz.

Hi Lewis,

If we consider that she didn’t see Morris Eagle walking past her front door at around 12.40 then that’s a third of the ‘nearly the whole time’ gone in one go.

[Lewis C]

I’m not suggesting that Fanny Mortimer was a liar because I have no reason to, but we might ask which is the likelier?

a) A man lies and falsely places himself at the scene of a knife murder and, because he was never there, he had no one to confirm that he wasn’t involved in that murder. Added to this we can think of no sensible reason why he might have told such a lie.

b) A woman, whether mistakenly or deliberately, exaggerated the amount of time that she was on her step that night.


And, I’d refer everyone to this post by Jeff on how poor we are at estimating periods of time.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ion#post851477

Hi Herlock. I would add that in one account of Fanny's statement, she said she was at her door nearly the whole time. In another, she said it was for about 10 minutes. If the 10 minutes account is the more accurate one, that would make it even easier to account for Fanny not seeing Schwartz.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For me the length of the ‘Schwartz incident’ can only be the duration of the occurrence that Schwartz witnessed. Therefore, it began at moment BS man ran into Stride and ended when Schwartz left the street. So I would estimate the duration of the Schwartz incident at around 20 seconds or so.

If we include entering Berner Street then we have Jeff’s 1m 32s time.

[JeffHamm]

No, we cannot.

How long was Stride supposedly standing at the gateway, before Schwartz turned into the street?

What happened after Schwartz left Berner St, and over what timespan?

We can limit ourselves to the point of view of Schwartz, or we take a more holistic view.

Yes, we can. How long Stride was at the gateway before the start of the Schwartz event is not part of the Schwartz event.

And, as I mention, if one considers Schwartz leaving the location of Berner' Street the "end" then it lasts about 1m 32s. But if you consider B.S. also leaving Berner' Street, then you need to make assumptions about what B.S. does and which direction he went, and add in that time too.

The duration of what Schwartz describes, including B.S.leaving the area would be between 1m 50s and about 3m.

So in trying to understand the whole timeline, one has a 1m 50s to 3m puzzle piece to work with that gets referred to as the Schwartz event

- Jeff

[BooksbyBJThompson]

If we extrapolate this sceen and put it on a street today housing a nosy neighbour, that nosy neighbour will know the details of anyone late a night passing by. Especially, if two doors down is a rollicking party going on.

Fanny's details: take them to the bank.That chick is Berner Street's nosy neighbour.

Fanny could probably recite chapter and verse on every soul who passed by her door when the Working Men's club had their Saturday do.

Of course, the Bag Man is not Jack.
Doesn't stop Fanny from memorizing the guy.
Aberline should have drafted her in plain clothes duty.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

The frustration of when you spend 45 minutes constructing a post that you feel is worthy of everyone reading...and then it somehow deletes as you try and post it.

If i had the money for a replacement, I would gladly smash my laptop to bits right now.

Livid

I hate tech more than I can put into words.

Hi RD,

Same thing has happened to me online. It's freaking devastating. Here's what I do now:

If I've typed out a long post, I Select All and Copy, then Paste entire entry into a SEPARATE online notepad, then hit Publish. That way, if the evil 0s and 1s try to slay me, I have a backup copy to try posting again.

I trust online Publish/Post Reply buttons as much as Jack with a knife.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was just that time 12:45 or a few minutes after 1am?

Does Wess mention people (plural) running up Fairclough St, or just one man chasing the supposed murderer?

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street ...

You’re simply confirming why Wess is unimportant. He heard something from someone a mixed up what he’d heard.

Approx 12.45 - Schwartz saw the incident.
Approx 1.00 - Diemschitz found the body.
Approx 1.02 - Diemschitz and Koz ran for a Constable.

There is no mystery. Unless you invent one of course.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps Wess returned to the club that morning (after sunrise), ignorant of what had occurred during the night, and just happened to come across a man walking his dog, and who knew and told him all about the incident, because he just happened to be Israel Schwartz. Is that what you mean by Schwartz telling Wess directly, but the two men otherwise having no 'connection'?

.

I don’t consider anyone as ‘having a connection’ just because they might have spoken on one occasion. And in this case they might not even have communicated directly.