Is He In The Mix?

[Herlock Sholmes]

That's the man!! Thanks!

He also wrote a series of novels featuring Inspector Lestrade, one of which was Lestrade and the Ripper.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I do recall a documentary, but have no reference to it. I suppose that some consideration needs to be considered toward the possibility that Mann was not the Ripper, but may have been Trevor's post murder organ harvester?

Hi George,

I’m surprised that Trevor hasn’t suggested him tbh.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I’m surprised that Trevor hasn’t suggested him tbh.

Hi Herlock,

IMO the level of dissecting competence rules out the usual suspects unless:

1. JtR was accustomed to the dissection room, and was someone like Thompson.

2. JtR was someone like the usual suspects and the intricate dissections were conducted after the actual murder.

Cheers, George

[Fernglas]

Hi Fernglas,

The question wasn't why you suspect Chapman. You previously said, "Deeming does not count, nothing but rumours connect him to the Whitechapel murders." My question was, what do you mean by being connected to the WC murders? From my point of view, the only people with a known connection to the murders are people known to have been at one of the murder sites near the time when the murder happened. Maybe you could also include people like Joseph Barnett (known to have had a relationship with a victim). But maybe your idea of having a connection is different from that. If so, what constitutes a connection for you?

It was once thought that Deeming was either in South Africa or in jail at the time of the Ripper murders, but we now know that he was in England at the time. See Ripperologist 142 (Feb 2015), page 91. The words are those of Paul Begg.

Ah, it clears up your view! I think you have a too strict definition of what a connection to the murders can be.
For me a connection to the murders among other traits is a suspect having had the possibility to commit these murders, meaning being a resident of Whitechapel at the time or knowing this part of London very well and living not more than 30 kilometers away. But I truly doubt that the Ripper was a commuter, it is near certain that he lived there.
Deeming might have been in England at the time of Jack´s reign of terror, but he certainly lacked the area knowledge the Ripper possessed

[The Rookie Detective]

Ah, it clears up your view! I think you have a too strict definition of what a connection to the murders can be.
For me a connection to the murders among other traits is a suspect having had the possibility to commit these murders, meaning being a resident of Whitechapel at the time or knowing this part of London very well and living not more than 30 kilometers away. But I truly doubt that the Ripper was a commuter, it is near certain that he lived there.
Deeming might have been in England at the time of Jack´s reign of terror, but he certainly lacked the area knowledge the Ripper possessed

Yes i agree

The one thing that Deeming lacked; was the intimate knowledge of the local area that the Ripper needed to have had.

The ripper was a man who knew the area inside out; every nook and cranny and every side alley, cut-through, empty warehouse, short cut etc etc...

That would require an individual who had lived in the area for some time.

There are surprisingly only a handful of potential suspects and persons of interest who fit that criteria.


Deeming isn't one of them.

[A P Tomlinson]

agree. lots of dodgy stuff going on with him.

There's such a huge spectrum of "What the Hell was he up to?" with Hutchinson.
It ranges from "Maybe he was the killer?" through "Maybe he was just a canny operator who grabbed an opportunity to fleece the Met out of a few quid?" to "He was Mentalist Level observant with eidetic memory skills and should have been on the Music Hall Stage with an act where 20 members of the audience put an item on a tray at the start of the show and he glances at them for 2 seconds, and at the end of the show repeats back everything that had been on the tray and even identifies who put it there!" The Incredible Hutchini the Memory Man!

[Abby Normal]

Yes i agree

The one thing that Deeming lacked; was the intimate knowledge of the local area that the Ripper needed to have had.

The ripper was a man who knew the area inside out; every nook and cranny and every side alley, cut-through, empty warehouse, short cut etc etc...

That would require an individual who had lived in the area for some time.

There are surprisingly only a handful of potential suspects and persons of interest who fit that criteria.


Deeming isn't one of them.

agree. and that he probably wasnt even in london at the time pretty much rules him out as a serious suspect for me.

[Abby Normal]

There's such a huge spectrum of "What the Hell was he up to?" with Hutchinson.
It ranges from "Maybe he was the killer?" through "Maybe he was just a canny operator who grabbed an opportunity to fleece the Met out of a few quid?" to "He was Mentalist Level observant with eidetic memory skills and should have been on the Music Hall Stage with an act where 20 members of the audience put an item on a tray at the start of the show and he glances at them for 2 seconds, and at the end of the show repeats back everything that had been on the tray and even identifies who put it there!" The Incredible Hutchini the Memory Man!

lol. true!

[New Waterloo]

Perhaps there is something overlooked. Edward Stanley man friend of Chapman was known by some as Edward Wand. Now Wand I would suggest is a fairly uncommon surname. In the 1881 Census for 24 Bucks Row lives a Frank Wand aged 28 Horse Slaughterer. Date too early probably coincidence. But little bit interesting. Maybe
NW

[Lewis C]

Yes i agree

The one thing that Deeming lacked; was the intimate knowledge of the local area that the Ripper needed to have had.

The ripper was a man who knew the area inside out; every nook and cranny and every side alley, cut-through, empty warehouse, short cut etc etc...

That would require an individual who had lived in the area for some time.

There are surprisingly only a handful of potential suspects and persons of interest who fit that criteria.


Deeming isn't one of them.

Hi RD,

Chapman wouldn't fit your criteria either, because he moved to Whitechapel shortly before the murders started, so he wouldn't know every nook and cranny and side alley, etc.

[Lewis C]

Ah, it clears up your view! I think you have a too strict definition of what a connection to the murders can be.
For me a connection to the murders among other traits is a suspect having had the possibility to commit these murders, meaning being a resident of Whitechapel at the time or knowing this part of London very well and living not more than 30 kilometers away. But I truly doubt that the Ripper was a commuter, it is near certain that he lived there.
Deeming might have been in England at the time of Jack´s reign of terror, but he certainly lacked the area knowledge the Ripper possessed

Thanks, now I understand what you mean.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD,

Chapman wouldn't fit your criteria either, because he moved to Whitechapel shortly before the murders started, so he wouldn't know every nook and cranny and side alley, etc.

A good point.

I think the ripper was a man who had lived in the area for at least a decade, possibly more.

The geo-profiling is perhaps more relevant than we realise.

When we look at the murder of Martha Tabram, this is perhaps his first kill.

I know the jury is out as to whether she was indeed a victim of the Ripper; because the M.O is slightly different. But it's also true that M.O tends to develop as the killer learns through experiment and experience.

With Tabram; it's messy, maniacal, and there's no doubt that he would have been splattered with her blood.

A frontal attack with a penknife is not the optimum way to dispatch his victim.

But the perpetrator wouldn't necessarily know that if they lacked experience.


The biggest clue that Tabram was a Ripper victim, was the use of a secondary weapon. Just one stab, but this IMO was a clear indication of his signature as a killer.

The ripper was all about overkill, through a combination of ravenous experimentation and an impulsive lust to cut post-mortem.

With Tabram, the 38 stabs to her torso were carried out as a barrage of ferocious cuts that probably took less than 15 seconds to inflict. That's 2 to 3 stabs a second and Tabram probably didn't realise what was happening. This was the moment the ripper erupted and this explosion of violence was arguably the catalyst for his further kills.

The solitary stab with a secondary weapon, was the equivalent of the ripper leaving his fingerprint at the scene. Otherwise, why use 2 weapons? The singular stab with the more formidable blade was the killer inflicting a more substantial wound and experimenting with how it felt.


But how is this all relevant to the geography?

Well, the man who killed Tabram was someone who almost certainly lived within a half-mile radius of the kill site.

So we are looking for a man who lived within a half-mile radius and who had lived in the area for at least a decade.

We aren't looking for some wild and loud lunatic running around with scissors; we are looking for a quiet and unassuming man.

There is no way on earth that Kelly would have let the ripper into her room if he was clearly a psychotic lunatic.

Kelly had been worried about being murdered by the Ripper, and so it is nonsensical that she would taken a risk.


Let's consider the man who was seen around 2.30am; standing opposite Miller's court on the other side of the road. A man who appeared to be waiting for someone, or perhaps...watching someone.

A quiet unassuming man standing in the rain...and yes it was raining.

Watching.

Now we know this man was Hutchinson.

He claimed to have known the ripper victim for around 3 years.

But we all know that based on his over exaggerated description, that he was either making the story up to get in the newspaper, or he was needing to explain his being seen by another witness standing opposite the kill site at a time close to the kill time.

His description of Astrakan man is somewhat "overkill."

The irony is not lost on that.


Hutchinson had never been definitively found; regardless of previous attempts to do so.

George Topping Hutchinson was a red herring and has been the single biggest distraction in the consideration of Hutchinson as the potential killer.


But the question remains; if Astrakan man didn't exist, then why was Hutchinson standing watching Miller's court in the first place?

Without Astrakan man, it makes Hutchinson's likelihood as having been the ripper, all that bit more intriguing.


And a man who stands in the rain watching a court through which a woman is subsequently butchered, is perhaps indicative of a man who lived locally...and had done so for long enough to know when to make his move.


Lots to ponder.

[Abby Normal]

A good point.

I think the ripper was a man who had lived in the area for at least a decade, possibly more.

The geo-profiling is perhaps more relevant than we realise.

When we look at the murder of Martha Tabram, this is perhaps his first kill.

I know the jury is out as to whether she was indeed a victim of the Ripper; because the M.O is slightly different. But it's also true that M.O tends to develop as the killer learns through experiment and experience.

With Tabram; it's messy, maniacal, and there's no doubt that he would have been splattered with her blood.

A frontal attack with a penknife is not the optimum way to dispatch his victim.

But the perpetrator wouldn't necessarily know that if they lacked experience.


The biggest clue that Tabram was a Ripper victim, was the use of a secondary weapon. Just one stab, but this IMO was a clear indication of his signature as a killer.

The ripper was all about overkill, through a combination of ravenous experimentation and an impulsive lust to cut post-mortem.

With Tabram, the 38 stabs to her torso were carried out as a barrage of ferocious cuts that probably took less than 15 seconds to inflict. That's 2 to 3 stabs a second and Tabram probably didn't realise what was happening. This was the moment the ripper erupted and this explosion of violence was arguably the catalyst for his further kills.

The solitary stab with a secondary weapon, was the equivalent of the ripper leaving his fingerprint at the scene. Otherwise, why use 2 weapons? The singular stab with the more formidable blade was the killer inflicting a more substantial wound and experimenting with how it felt.


But how is this all relevant to the geography?

Well, the man who killed Tabram was someone who almost certainly lived within a half-mile radius of the kill site.

So we are looking for a man who lived within a half-mile radius and who had lived in the area for at least a decade.

We aren't looking for some wild and loud lunatic running around with scissors; we are looking for a quiet and unassuming man.

There is no way on earth that Kelly would have let the ripper into her room if he was clearly a psychotic lunatic.

Kelly had been worried about being murdered by the Ripper, and so it is nonsensical that she would taken a risk.


Let's consider the man who was seen around 2.30am; standing opposite Miller's court on the other side of the road. A man who appeared to be waiting for someone, or perhaps...watching someone.

A quiet unassuming man standing in the rain...and yes it was raining.

Watching.

Now we know this man was Hutchinson.

He claimed to have known the ripper victim for around 3 years.

But we all know that based on his over exaggerated description, that he was either making the story up to get in the newspaper, or he was needing to explain his being seen by another witness standing opposite the kill site at a time close to the kill time.

His description of Astrakan man is somewhat "overkill."

The irony is not lost on that.


Hutchinson had never been definitively found; regardless of previous attempts to do so.

George Topping Hutchinson was a red herring and has been the single biggest distraction in the consideration of Hutchinson as the potential killer.


But the question remains; if Astrakan man didn't exist, then why was Hutchinson standing watching Miller's court in the first place?

Without Astrakan man, it makes Hutchinson's likelihood as having been the ripper, all that bit more intriguing.


And a man who stands in the rain watching a court through which a woman is subsequently butchered, is perhaps indicative of a man who lived locally...and had done so for long enough to know when to make his move.


Lots to ponder.

bingo rd.

all the evidence points to mary knowing her killer. they knew each other. he knew exactly where she lived. he is near her near her tod. he has no alibi. hes engaged in stalking like behavior with her, or at the least an unusual interest in her. and unlike most aspects of the case when dealing with suspects behavior and movements these are all facts.
and yes good connection with overkill. the ripper exhibited it with his victims, and hutch certainly does too. his description of aman is overkill, his sequence of events is overkill, his attempt to convince police he can find and id him his overkill, his press account is overkill.

and speaking of connections, heres anotjer one for you.. the only two direct pieces of evidence in the whole case that implicate a jew? the gsg. and oh.. hutch.

[Lewis C]

bingo rd.

all the evidence points to mary knowing her killer. they knew each other. he knew exactly where she lived. he is near her near her tod. he has no alibi. hes engaged in stalking like behavior with her, or at the least an unusual interest in her. and unlike most aspects of the case when dealing with suspects behavior and movements these are all facts.
and yes good connection with overkill. the ripper exhibited it with his victims, and hutch certainly does too. his description of aman is overkill, his sequence of events is overkill, his attempt to convince police he can find and id him his overkill, his press account is overkill.

and speaking of connections, heres anotjer one for you.. the only two direct pieces of evidence in the whole case that implicate a jew? the gsg. and oh.. hutch.

Hi Abby,

And I'm not even sure that the GSG does. I think that it can be interpreted in more than one way.