The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

AFAIK police times were established by a sergeant with a pocket watch regulated at a police station establishing a clock correction for a clock visible on the beat - Fixed point for instance. The time given by Eagle was a long time estimate. If the footfalls that Mortimer heard were made by Smith, then her clock would have been around ten minutes fast. IMO the clock in the club was about 10 minutes slow.

Cheers, George

I understand your position on this, George, and I partly agree with it. However, I think it's a question of a policeman on a regulated beat versus the weight of the remaining evidence, which supports a 1am discovery time. However, as Wick mentioned in #1025, there is just too much going on at around this time for all of it to have happened within a few minutes. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between - Diemschitz reaching Berner St at 4 or 5 minutes to one, and Smith doing the same 4 or 5 minutes after one. That would mean the cries of murder were heard almost right on 1am GMT.

William Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Now, what about that Schwartz/Goldstein chap? Or do you still cling to the notion that these identities were two separate men?

[S.Brett]

Was Eagle one of those locked into the yard, and thus on Reid's list of 28?

Reid:

"As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves. The houses were inspected a second time and the occupants examined and their rooms searched. A loft close by was searched, but no trace could be found of the murderer".

I have no idea how many people living in the stableyard and from outside the yard had come into the yard. Itīs possible that some "members of the club" were not searched at that time because they were no longer "on-site".

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-crime-scenes/dutfields-yard-and-berner-street/9131-berner-street-census-1881-1891

[Fleetwood Mac]

and she was killed by someone with expertise.

I reckon this whole expertise thing is overplayed.

The nature of the cut to Liz's throat is what experienced pathologists expect to see, whether or not the murderer has knowledge. The wound, when a killer cuts a victim's throat from behind, follows a pattern; and the left carotid artery being severed is an inevitable consequence of the position of killer and victim as opposed to necessarily targeting that left carotid artery.

What's more instructive is that the murderer and Liz are in a very dark spot. That's not by accident. Dark enough for Morris Eagle to not know that a body could be lying there, and dark enough for Louis to pass Liz's body before his pony shied, in other words Louis didn't see anything as he passed Liz's body.

Two people in a very dark spot are there for a reason, the murderer with his own reason.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Reid:

"As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves. The houses were inspected a second time and the occupants examined and their rooms searched. A loft close by was searched, but no trace could be found of the murderer".

I have no idea how many people living in the stableyard and from outside the yard had come into the yard. Itīs possible that some "members of the club" were not searched at that time because they were no longer "on-site".

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...nsus-1881-1891

I think that is correct. Several of those who were at the club at time of the discovery, were not on Reid's list. Did some leave via the loft?

On that page regarding census info, I can only see one odd-numbered address, other than the numbers occupied by the school. If Schwartz crossed the street to see if his wife had moved from a Berner St address, and that address was on the east/odd-numbered side of the street, how many possible addresses could that be?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have no idea how many people living in the stableyard and from outside the yard had come into the yard. Itīs possible that some "members of the club" were not searched at that time because they were no longer "on-site".

Lamb: I went into the yard and looked into the cottages there. The occupants of them were all in bed, except a man who came down half-dressed to let me in. One of the cottages was locked and the other unlocked. All the people in the cottages were undressed. I examined the recess in the yard, and examined the dustbin. I did not look over the wooden partition in the yard. The people in the cottages seemed frightened. They were not many minutes in answering the door. I did not tell them what was the matter.

Perhaps none or maybe one of the cottage occupants ended up on Reid's list.

Lamb: When I looked round the yard after I arrived, there were about thirty people there. Some of them had followed me in.

Spooner, Herschburg, Mortimer, and possibly Mr Harris were already there.

Lamb: I then went into the club, and started from the doorway, so that no one should get out before I saw him. I turned my light on to the different parties there. I examined a number of their hands by taking them up and looking at them. I looked at all their hands as they hung by their sides. I also examined their clothes. There were from 15 to 20 persons there.

Clearly the numbers don't add up to 28.

[GBinOz]

That would mean the cries of murder were heard almost right on 1am GMT.

Now, what about that Schwartz/Goldstein chap? Or do you still cling to the notion that these identities were two separate men?

Hi Andrew,

The cries of murder in Fairclough, or in Commercial Road?

Whilst "cling" is not the word I would consider appropriate, I am not yet persuaded that Schwartz and Goldstein were the same person.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

The cries of murder in Fairclough, or in Commercial Road?

Either. I'm just hypothesising that Diemschitz arrived some minutes before 1am, and Smith some minutes after, with the cries of murder in between.

Whilst "cling" is not the word I would consider appropriate, I am not yet persuaded that Schwartz and Goldstein were the same person.

Cheers, George

Sorry George. That was just a poor bit of humour - me pretending to be in the majority position when the reverse is true.

[New Waterloo]

Timing seems to be the main bone of contention with the Stride murder and it seems impossible to resolve. It is understandably important because it shows where people are at various times and where they are in relation to other people. So in turn allowing us to make judgements as to their involvement in the murder. Silly idea this ant the math's experts will probably say in cant be done but what about if we take say the earliest time accepted for an individual with the latest timing and then deduce an average. Do this for all of the people mentioned as witnesses. To be honest I think I am living in cloud cuckoo land but thought I would mention the idea. NW

[The Rookie Detective]

Timing seems to be the main bone of contention with the Stride murder and it seems impossible to resolve. It is understandably important because it shows where people are at various times and where they are in relation t other people. So in turn allowing us to make judgements as to their involvement in the murder. Silly idea this ant the math's experts will probably say in cant be done but what about if we take say the earliest time accepted for an individual with the latest timing and then deduce an average. Do this for all of the people mentioned as witnesses. To be honest I think I am living in cloud cuckoo land but thought I would mention the idea. NW

I agree that the timings for Stride are what makes things complicated.

I would say though that timing issues/inconsistencies/contradictions; are commonplace in the majority of unsolved murder cases.

Ironically, if all the witnesses' times were consistent relative to each other, then that would be equally as suspicious.

When questioning an alleged witness, it's important to not "lead" the conversation and make the mistake of asking closed questions.

It's imperative to remain impartial and objective, but in reality, people are people, and with a potential lack of training or an individual's preconceived viewpoints, the direction of questioning can become corrupted; both directly and by proxy.

I would always start with an open question like

"Did you witness anything or anyone behaving suspiciously?"

and then if the answer is "YES" then...

"Tell me in your own words what you witnessed?"

However, it's not just the questions asked, it's the way they are asked that's also important, and it's often the case that witnesses are asked questions that are designed to lead rather than allow the witness to openly explain and confirm their own alleged observations to a particular incident.

This is relevant to the timings; because compared to the police, the press/people reporting on the crimes have been renowned throughout history for pushing a story to either sell newspapers or to push a certain political agenda. The irony is that while claiming to tell the news to the public from an objective standpoint, the press isn't interested in impartiality or objectivity if it clashes with their capacity to make money or sell a story.

That is why I would always question the reliability of every statement and every word spoken.

In particular, those witness statements that appear to change AFTER a witness has already given a statement to the police and then spoken to the press. Or an individual who has sworn under oath, but then changed their story several times.

It's all just noise to confuse the investigation.

But things can work both ways...Take for example the case of MJK...there were 2 witnesses who claimed to have seen her alive and well the following morning after she was murdered. Maxwell was adamant what she had seen and unflinching in her account. Now on face value that's a good sign; she's not just changing her story for the sake of impressing the press.
However, when we look at her potential motive for stating she saw MJK alive and well, we have to consider that her husband was involved in the Lodging House across the road from the murder.
The common lodging houses had a 'sweeping things under the carpet' mentality; which is commonplace in many close-knit communities today. They cover each other's back and certainly don't like talking to the police; often seeing the police as the oppressor.

In Maxwell's case, she had a motive to lie because MJK was murdered in McCarthy's property and McCarthy and Crossingham owned (quite literally) Dorset Street. In fact, all of the lodging houses to which all of the victims were dwelling shortly before their respective deaths, were all run by just a handful of powerful local businessmen.
This also included the WVC, a rag-tag group of powerful traders run by a freemason who restored theatres, an actor connected to the criminal underworld, a convicted extortionist...the list goes on.
The only reason why the WVC came into fruition, was to try and reverse the decision made by the government to NOT pay a reward for apprehending the killer. They tried several times to seek reward money, but to what end? The WVC perpetuated the crimes and a lot of the theatrical elements of the case came about as a result of the actions of the WVC. They were under the guise of trying to do good; when in reality they were trying to extort the system. That's the reason why Le Grand got so involved and why Albert Bachert subsequently wrote fake letters to himself; claiming they were form the killer.

Imagine a cure without an actual virus?

What's the point?

The WVC was the supposed 'cure' and only existed because the killer remained at large and the WVC thrived off of the murders.

In the meantime the real killer was free to kill at will.


That freedom only exemplified by the fact that most of the TIMINGS were opposing in their practical nature.


Let's look at the physical evidence WITHOUT ANY TIMINGS and see what we are left with?

Stride had her throat cut ONCE...so deeply it severed her windpipe and nearly decapitated her. Unlike the other murders, there was little sign of her having been strangled or suffocated first.
That would suggest she wasn't a ripper victim and was only considered after the WVC got involved to try and seek more justification for reward money. Le Grand got to Packer, the Double Event letter was fabricated, and then the legend of the ripper goes on.

The only thing linking the ripper to the murder of Stride; was the so-called double event...and I think there's an argument to suggest that the real ripper had nothing to do with Stride.

Stride's murder could have taken UNDER 30 seconds to commit. So quick, that she was still gripping her cachous.

Perhaps she was assaulted by BS man, perhaps Kidney. he's found her and tried to drag her with him, but she resists and he throws her to the floor.. he relaizes he's been seen by multiple witnesses and walks away....and Stride got up...moved a few steps to head towards the side door to meet the man she had been kissing earlier, who had been in the club for the past hour or so...she's having to wait outside because sh's not a Jew...she had blood/mud on her face/in her mouth...and so took out the cachous to freshen her breath before going to meet her man...just in time to be confronted by her killer who saw she was vulnerable. He saw an opportunity. Standing in the dark he blocked her way, seeing she was clearly not a Jew. She gestures to move past him...but as she does he grabs her and slashes her throat... it's over in a matter of seconds and he just goes back into the club and leaves her to bleed out just as Diemschutz arrives...

Lave being the killer.


Just a hypothesis...but the TIMINGS HE GIVES VARY so much that he is the ONLY witness (apart from Diemschultz) who PASSIVELY PLACES himself at the murder site. He effectively implicates himself..but not enough to convince the police he was relevant; because he's clever enough to keep his TIMINGS vague.

A man grabbing some air outside in the yard anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes and sees nothing or nobody...not even Stride...that;s because he just killed her and slips back into the club undetected.

This case is always about looking at the inconsistencies of the little man, the man who is there, but isn't there all at the same TIME.


The man who buys grapes and then stands with the victim for over half an hour across the street in view of a witness...ISN'T the killer
The man who assaults her in public and throws her to the ground in view of multiple witnesses...ISN't the killer.

It's the man unseen in the shadows..who doesn't walk any further than from the club door to the place he cut Stride's throat as she sought refuge after being assaulted in public.

The truth is that there's nothing more thrilling for a killer than openly placing themselves at the scene of the crime at the TIME of the crime..and yet STILL not be considered as the killer.

The argument of "Why would a killer deliberately implicate himself?"

Well, for a psychopath, that's part of their game.


I would imagine that Lave was on the run and seeking refuge in the club...and the club realized they had an issue and needed to find a way to seek damage limitation and containment. Enter Le Grand and Co...to invent the grapes and a mystery man who spent ages with her before he killed her.

Now even though I believe that the real JTR DID spend time with his victim BEFORE he killed them...in the case of Stride, this doesn't fit.

Le Grand was hired to push for the double event based on fabricated correspondences designed to inflate and perpetuate the murders, to outshine the Torso killings. The aftermath of the killing of Stride and perhaps MJK too, was stage-managed in order to try and strengthen the fear surrounding the killings.

The real killer may have enjoyed the publicity, but I believe that Stride's murder was used as a tool to justify the actions of the WVC and made to look like a ripper killing. The WVC saw an opportunity and took it,



Or...this is all nonsense and her killer was the man seen leaving the bricklayers arms... a certain Dr Barnardo.



I do love a good hypothesis




RD

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Andrew,

The cries of murder in Fairclough, or in Commercial Road?

Whilst "cling" is not the word I would consider appropriate, I am not yet persuaded that Schwartz and Goldstein were the same person.

Cheers, George

George
You might be interested in this I picked up on my travels around the country

"On the Isle of Man, another interesting story emerged from a middle-aged woman. This was interesting because I had never heard this mentioned before. She told the story that her great, great- grandmother was walking home with several other women the night of the Stride murder in Berner Street, and they heard all the commotion following the discovery of the body. They looked up and saw a male shinning across the rooftops. This is an interesting story because it is believed that the killer was disturbed carrying out this murder and therefore could have made his quick and hasty getaway down to the bottom of Dutfield’s Yard and up and across the rooftops.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[The Rookie Detective]

George
You might be interested in this I picked up on my travels around the country

"On the Isle of Man, another interesting story emerged from a middle-aged woman. This was interesting because I had never heard this mentioned before. She told the story that her great, great- grandmother was walking home with several other women the night of the Stride murder in Berner Street, and they heard all the commotion following the discovery of the body. They looked up and saw a male shinning across the rooftops. This is an interesting story because it is believed that the killer was disturbed carrying out this murder and therefore could have made his quick and hasty getaway down to the bottom of Dutfield’s Yard and up and across the rooftops.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Like I've said several times before...when initially entering a room/location, nobody instinctively looks up...because as humans, we've never had any natural airborne predators... and so the killer MAY have appeared to escape the scenes of the murders so easily; because he scaled the roof to escape.

And in the dark and fog...it's no wonder how he left the scenes of the murders unseen.


Fascinating find


RD

[GBinOz]

George
You might be interested in this I picked up on my travels around the country

"On the Isle of Man, another interesting story emerged from a middle-aged woman. This was interesting because I had never heard this mentioned before. She told the story that her great, great- grandmother was walking home with several other women the night of the Stride murder in Berner Street, and they heard all the commotion following the discovery of the body. They looked up and saw a male shinning across the rooftops. This is an interesting story because it is believed that the killer was disturbed carrying out this murder and therefore could have made his quick and hasty getaway down to the bottom of Dutfield’s Yard and up and across the rooftops.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

Thank you for that information. This would point to Diemshitz and his pony having provided the disturbance of the murder.

Cheers, George

[New Waterloo]

Excellent post RD, very balanced and makes you think about the reliability of witnesses.

[Wickerman]

Agreed. Something has to 'give'.

So, what about the period between Diemschitz and Smith? How many minutes?

Do you mean between Smith (about 12:35) and Diemshutz (about 1:00)?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Do you mean between Smith (about 12:35) and Diemshutz (about 1:00)?

Their respective arrival time