The Stride Murder

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon & George,

For what it’s worth, here’s my view on the search parties – after having read up on this thread.

I think Kozebrodski may have run out of the yard a little ahead of Diemshutz and that he also returned to the yard somewhat ahead of Diemshutz & Spooner (that Diemshutz more or less stopped to talk to Spooner, while Kozebrodski continued ahead of him). Kozebrodski & Diemshutz being the only two running past Spooner, just as he testified.

Hi Frank.
It's hard to say if they (Diemshutz & Kozebrodski) left together, or 30 seconds or a minute apart. I would say they both ran in the same direction, close enough for Spooner to believe they came past him together.

Jacobs was possibly a third man that ran south out of the yard. If so, he must have continued south on Berner Street or turned west towards Backchurch Lane, while the other two went in the direction of Grove Street. Or “Jacobs” was just a mishearing for “Diemshutz”. Diemshutz wasn’t a common name and perhaps Eagle didn’t say/pronounce it very clearly. Seeing that both names have two syllables, the reporter in question may have made “Jacobs” – a much more common name - of what was actually being said.

It seems more like a mishearing to me. something similar to Barnet saying "hair", when some reporters thought he said "ear".
It's just that Jacobs doesn't sound to my ear like Diemshutz - neither the consonants nor the syllables match.
I don't read shorthand, but I wonder if it's a transliteration error by the editor, but I thought personal names were not part of shorthand. I mean I didn't think there was a code for personal names.
I don't know, there are no easy answers to that problem.

Then I think that Mortimer came outside again right after hearing Eagle pass her door shouting for the police. Mortimer, stating “A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm”, seems to have seen Spooner lift Stride’s chin, feeling it was quite warm. So, she came out right after Eagle passed and entered the yard when Diemshutz had already returned with Spooner. Depending, of course, how “immediately” Mortimer actually went out to see what was going on, it seems to me that Eagle left very shortly before Diemshutz returned with Spooner. Diemshutz could have arrived back in the yard within 1.5 to 2 minutes, maybe even less (from the yard to Grove Street & back would be around 300 meters/990 ft).

I recall one account where Spooner said he had been stood by the body for nearly 5 minutes before Eagle & the first constable arrived.
Was Spooner the first to touch the face?
That would make a link between Mortimer's statement & other events.

Kozebrodski, returning a bit ahead of Diemshutz & Spooner, may very well have “went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle”, just as he’s stated to have said. So, I think he saw Eagle running north and he caught up with him before reaching Commercial Road. Or he arrived back at the yard just before/when Eagle started running out.

Yes, Eagle did not come down at the same time as Diemshutz came out of the club, with Kozebrodski. Eagle only came down after Gilleman/Gildeman/Gidleman came in shouting about a dead woman being outside.

I agree with Jon that Kozebrodski and Gilyarovsky at least don’t seem to be one and the same. Where Kozebrodski seems to have been called to accompany Diemshutz into the garden, Gilyarovski then went to the printing shop and then into the editor’s office to find Yaffa and Krantz. And that clearly isn’t running out “immediately” or “without delay” to find a policeman.

The best,
Frank

[Wickerman]

I reckon this whole expertise thing is overplayed.

The nature of the cut to Liz's throat is what experienced pathologists expect to see, whether or not the murderer has knowledge. The wound, when a killer cuts a victim's throat from behind, follows a pattern; and the left carotid artery being severed is an inevitable consequence of the position of killer and victim as opposed to necessarily targeting that left carotid artery.

What's more instructive is that the murderer and Liz are in a very dark spot. That's not by accident. Dark enough for Morris Eagle to not know that a body could be lying there, and dark enough for Louis to pass Liz's body before his pony shied, in other words Louis didn't see anything as he passed Liz's body.

In other words it was Muffin the Mule that discovered the body?

Joking aside, that was pointed out by one member some years back.
Someone who had experience with horses said if the dark lump had been a pile of stones, or soil the horse wouldn't have shied away from it, it would have just trotted on past. The member suggested the horse detected life, that Liz had to have been still sufficiently alive at that point when the horse past, that it sensed danger.

It does beg the question if Diemshutz had driven past the body, and the horse had not shied, how long would it have been before the body was found, and based on all the existing testimony, what time would be assigned to the murder?

[Wickerman]

Like I've said several times before...when initially entering a room/location, nobody instinctively looks up...because as humans, we've never had any natural airborne predators... and so the killer MAY have appeared to escape the scenes of the murders so easily; because he scaled the roof to escape.

And in the dark and fog...it's no wonder how he left the scenes of the murders unseen.


Fascinating find


RD

Yes, but the Post Office was burgled adjacent to Mitre Square over the weekend of the murder. The story does not give a location, and we already have examples of confusion between the two murders.

[Wickerman]

Their respective arrival time

Sorry, I realized what you meant after reading a few posts.
Something less than 10 minutes, more like 5 - if we are guessing.
Does any number come to mind for yourself?

[New Waterloo]

If we are to believe the witness Schwartz then I think there is something about BSMs behaviour which needs considering. Schwartz states that BSM is walking as if partially intoxicated. In other words has been drinking to the extent that his walk is affected. The altercation takes place at the gateway with physical contact between him and Stride. Even if Stride stumbles and falls it is significant contact. Now remember BSM has been drinking.

Schwartz clears off being followed/pursued by Pipeman. Now you researchers with more experience than me would know that timing becomes very important. We seem to have have very little time to fit everything in when you consider the question.

Where has BSM gone. He appears to have disappeared. No sightings reported by witnesses.

Now experience tells me that if Schwartz is telling the truth, this drunk or a least tipsy BSM is not going to just walk away from the scene. We all know drunks have a particular habit of hanging around and arguing the toss with anyone available. Stride hasn't gone she is still there. He has already assaulted her and obviously was that worked up to do so.

If it was BSM who cut Strides throat, drunk or not he would be off like a shot. Getting out of the area and MAY have been able to without being seen. BUT if he was a drunk person causing a stir then I believe he would have hung around and continued his agitation well for a least for a few minutes and then wandered off.

How and why did BSM disappear from the scene so quickly?

To me this seems to suggest that BSM is our murderer.

Against this is that Schwartz could be lying, or BSM himself was threatened by somebody out of sight in the yard. sort of "clear off or I will use the knife on you" so he rapidly clears off.

Perhaps if he isn't the murderer he sees it take place and shocked and thinks I am out of here.

Whatever he seems to disappear from the scene very quickly. It would be interesting to know form the timing researchers the minimum and maximum time that BSM could have been at the gateway before a witness arrives and would have seen him

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

Yes, but the Post Office was burgled adjacent to Mitre Square over the weekend of the murder. The story does not give a location, and we already have examples of confusion between the two murders.

That's interesting because I was unaware of the burglary.

Just had a random thought....the cellar at 29 Hanbury Street was broken in to shortly before the murder....and the Post Office close to Mitre Square was also broken in to...

and so could those incidents be connected?

Could these have been committed by the ripper...as a means of reconnaissance to check for police response, timings etc...

And could they have also been places where the killer was present BEFORE the murders took place?

Random, but interesting nonetheless.


RD

[Wickerman]

That's interesting because I was unaware of the burglary.

Just had a random thought....the cellar at 29 Hanbury Street was broken in to shortly before the murder....and the Post Office close to Mitre Square was also broken in to...

and so could those incidents be connected?

Could these have been committed by the ripper...as a means of reconnaissance to check for police response, timings etc...

And could they have also been places where the killer was present BEFORE the murders took place?

Random, but interesting nonetheless.


RD

DARING BURGLARY AT ALDGATE POST-OFFICE.-When the Post-office in High-street, Aldgate, a few yards from where the murder in Mitre-square took place on Sunday, was opened yesterday morning it was discovered that it had been entered by burglars and the safe forced. The safe contained an unusually large amount of money, 370l. being locked up in one of the drawers, and about 49l. being in an ordinary bowl just inside one of the compartments. Stamps to the amount of about 250l. were also in the safe. The burglars, after discovering the safe, proceeded to wrench open one of the sides. They were successful in this, and managed to reach the money in the bowl, and the stamps, which they took. The drawer in which the larger amount of cash was locked was subjected to very rough treatment, but fortunately it resisted the thieves' efforts. A sum of about 3l. belonging to the postmaster was also taken from an upper room in the house. The fact that the office had been broken into was discovered by a clerk on his arrival at eight o'clock yesterday morning. On entering the passage he saw that some of the stairs leading from the upper part of the house and over some steps by which the cellar is reached from the office had been forced up. He at once informed the police, who then found the damage to the safe. Careful examination by the police shows that the burglars first entered an empty warehouse in Duke-street, just round the corner, and then got into the post-office through the trap-door on the roof. For some time the safety of the office has been suspected by the police and the Post Office authorities, who have noticed the comparative ease by which it could be entered from the back on account of the adjacent premises being unoccupied. It is supposed that the robbery took place on Saturday night, for it seems astonishing that any thieves should have been daring enough to enter the premises after the great commotion caused by the discovery of the murder but a few yards away, and the consequent presence of so many police in the district.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881002.html?printer=true

[Wickerman]

If we are to believe the witness Schwartz then I think there is something about BSMs behaviour which needs considering. Schwartz states that BSM is walking as if partially intoxicated. In other words has been drinking to the extent that his walk is affected. The altercation takes place at the gateway with physical contact between him and Stride. Even if Stride stumbles and falls it is significant contact. Now remember BSM has been drinking.

We do not know that, adopting a suggestion as fact has become a common fault in these murders.
There is a suspect who was known to have an 'awkward gait', nothing to do with drinking.
I imagine there were many in the East End that had problems walking, either from polio or war wounds, it can't have been unusual to see a man stumbling along.
Whether BS-man had been drinking is only a guess.

Schwartz clears off being followed/pursued by Pipeman. Now you researchers with more experience than me would know that timing becomes very important. We seem to have have very little time to fit everything in when you consider the question.

Where has BSM gone. He appears to have disappeared. No sightings reported by witnesses.

Now experience tells me that if Schwartz is telling the truth, this drunk or a least tipsy BSM is not going to just walk away from the scene. We all know drunks have a particular habit of hanging around and arguing the toss with anyone available. Stride hasn't gone she is still there. He has already assaulted her and obviously was that worked up to do so.

If it was BSM who cut Strides throat, drunk or not he would be off like a shot. Getting out of the area and MAY have been able to without being seen. BUT if he was a drunk person causing a stir then I believe he would have hung around and continued his agitation well for a least for a few minutes and then wandered off.

How and why did BSM disappear from the scene so quickly?

To me this seems to suggest that BSM is our murderer.

Against this is that Schwartz could be lying, or BSM himself was threatened by somebody out of sight in the yard. sort of "clear off or I will use the knife on you" so he rapidly clears off.

Perhaps if he isn't the murderer he sees it take place and shocked and thinks I am out of here.

Whatever he seems to disappear from the scene very quickly. It would be interesting to know form the timing researchers the minimum and maximum time that BSM could have been at the gateway before a witness arrives and would have seen him

NW

It's the common problem, no-one saw what Schwartz saw, and we all wonder why.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

How and why did BSM disappear from the scene so quickly?

mugging: an act of attacking and robbing someone in a public place

Whatever he seems to disappear from the scene very quickly. It would be interesting to know form the timing researchers the minimum and maximum time that BSM could have been at the gateway before a witness arrives and would have seen him

This also applies to Stride. The 'Schwartz incident' is implicitly defined as beginning the moment Schwartz enters Berner St and ends the moment he leaves it. It should be defined as the moment the first of the four enters Berner St, and either ending with a murder and the last of the three men leaving the street, or when all four have left the street. However, this would undermine the believability of the story, and mess with timelines.

We can keep the incident fairly short in time, however, by regarding the altercation as being a mugging. The problem then is that the first man is no longer the murderer, but the timing for the murder is almost perfect. So perhaps the incident was real enough but did not occur when Schwartz claimed it did.

decoy: a person, device, or event meant as a distraction, to hide what an individual or a group might be looking for

[Fleetwood Mac]

In other words it was Muffin the Mule that discovered the body?

Joking aside, that was pointed out by one member some years back.
Someone who had experience with horses said if the dark lump had been a pile of stones, or soil the horse wouldn't have shied away from it, it would have just trotted on past. The member suggested the horse detected life, that Liz had to have been still sufficiently alive at that point when the horse past, that it sensed danger.

It does beg the question if Diemshutz had driven past the body, and the horse had not shied, how long would it have been before the body was found, and based on all the existing testimony, what time would be assigned to the murder?

I think it's part of the instinct/evolution of a pony to detect something that is unusual and may be dangerous, Jon, and as you'll know ponies have a far better sense of smell and sight than humans, in the dark. I would absolutely disagree on the point Liz must have been alive, a pony will detect an unusual object.

On how long Liz could have been there undiscovered, that's a very good point that the vast majority of people will have never considered. As is the TOD estimate point.

The other point that's worth considering is that Liz would not necessarily have been rendered unconscious immediately and may have been gargling blood, which puts a different complexion on whether or not Jack was disturbed by Louis.

Obviously Dr Phillips was more conservative in his estimate than Dr Blackwell when he said: "within an hour".

All things considered, I would say the best bet is that Louis did not disturb Jack and Liz was dead not long after PC Smith passed.

[Lewis C]

If we are to believe the witness Schwartz then I think there is something about BSMs behaviour which needs considering. Schwartz states that BSM is walking as if partially intoxicated. In other words has been drinking to the extent that his walk is affected. The altercation takes place at the gateway with physical contact between him and Stride. Even if Stride stumbles and falls it is significant contact. Now remember BSM has been drinking.

Schwartz clears off being followed/pursued by Pipeman. Now you researchers with more experience than me would know that timing becomes very important. We seem to have have very little time to fit everything in when you consider the question.

Where has BSM gone. He appears to have disappeared. No sightings reported by witnesses.

Now experience tells me that if Schwartz is telling the truth, this drunk or a least tipsy BSM is not going to just walk away from the scene. We all know drunks have a particular habit of hanging around and arguing the toss with anyone available. Stride hasn't gone she is still there. He has already assaulted her and obviously was that worked up to do so.

If it was BSM who cut Strides throat, drunk or not he would be off like a shot. Getting out of the area and MAY have been able to without being seen. BUT if he was a drunk person causing a stir then I believe he would have hung around and continued his agitation well for a least for a few minutes and then wandered off.

How and why did BSM disappear from the scene so quickly?

To me this seems to suggest that BSM is our murderer.

Against this is that Schwartz could be lying, or BSM himself was threatened by somebody out of sight in the yard. sort of "clear off or I will use the knife on you" so he rapidly clears off.

Perhaps if he isn't the murderer he sees it take place and shocked and thinks I am out of here.

Whatever he seems to disappear from the scene very quickly. It would be interesting to know form the timing researchers the minimum and maximum time that BSM could have been at the gateway before a witness arrives and would have seen him

NW

Hi New Waterloo,

I think that BS Man absolutely could have been Stride's killer. NBFN's suggestion that she was mugged is also possible. Or it could have been a member of the club that threw her down because he didn't like her soliciting in front of the club. Or maybe she angered someone who had a romantic or sexual interest in her. But regardless of who it was, I see no reason why we should expect him to stay at the gateway for any period of time after the assault. He may or may not have been drunk, and even if he was, different people act in different ways when they're drunk.

According to Schwartz, there was one other witness, Pipeman, and Pipeman never came forward as a witness. It could be that there was another witness shortly after Schwartz passed that likewise never came forward. But I think most likely BS Man didn't stay near the gateway for long because he had no reason to. He may or not have also had every reason not to.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Wickerman. Yes a very valid point about me assuming BSM was drunk. I am wrong in making that assumption. In fact the reports re Schwartz do seem to say that BSM is walking as if partially intoxicated would be the best way of describing the walk. So he either has an odd gait for whatever reason, could be drunk or pretending to be drunk. According to Schwartz however he does obviously have some kind of disagreement/problem with Stride at the gateway and the disagreement is not just verbal but in his mind serious enough for him to lay hands on Stride (an assault) where she ends up on the ground. Now I am trying to not make assumptions but consider the options for BSM.

If he has an unusual gait it could be suggested that this does not affect his intentions or his actions, whatever they may be.

If he is drunk then grabbing hold of Stride could be as a result of his condition. We are all people of the world and seen drunken behaviour. Perhaps she said something that upset her or vice versa, a multitude of reasons sparking his drunken behaviour

or

If was pretending to be drunk. This is intentional behaviour, employed to confuse people. Now I am out of my depth but clearly intentional behaviour used to confuse people just before somebody has their throat cut. Well not sure what this means really but I do know as fact that pretending to be drunk has been used by people in the past to achieve something.

I suppose what I am trying to get across is that BSM must have had a reason to interact with Stride so physically. Most people don't go around grabbing others unless there is a reason so he must have thought the situation was serious enough to make a decision to grab her. There is a commotion with Pipe man shouting, Stride on the floor and Schwartz deciding to clear off.

When we were kids and did something wrong we all ran off. It doesn't make sense that BSM, concerned for Stride would go to all the trouble of engaging in a push pull with Stride and then just disappear. If he feared for her safety and was an innocent man he would have stayed around a bit to make sure she was safe wouldn't he. He had just made a big fuss of things.

Why does he disappear so quickly, why as an important witness doesn't he come forward. Why doesn't he call for the police at the time if he was so concerned about Stride going into the club.

I just keep thinking. Schwartz is out the way, Pipeman has disappeared.

There is a moment of quiet in the yard and in the street. An unexpected opportunity.

Throat cut, run off.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Wickerman. Yes a very valid point about me assuming BSM was drunk. I am wrong in making that assumption. In fact the reports re Schwartz do seem to say that BSM is walking as if partially intoxicated would be the best way of describing the walk. So he either has an odd gait for whatever reason, could be drunk or pretending to be drunk. According to Schwartz however he does obviously have some kind of disagreement/problem with Stride at the gateway and the disagreement is not just verbal but in his mind serious enough for him to lay hands on Stride (an assault) where she ends up on the ground. Now I am trying to not make assumptions but consider the options for BSM.

If he has an unusual gait it could be suggested that this does not affect his intentions or his actions, whatever they may be.

If he is drunk then grabbing hold of Stride could be as a result of his condition. We are all people of the world and seen drunken behaviour. Perhaps she said something that upset her or vice versa, a multitude of reasons sparking his drunken behaviour

Whether it be a funny walk, or a drunkard walk, can you see this man pulling off the Mitre Square murder, and then quickly disappearing into the night?

It's interesting what happens when the relevant part of the press report is merged with the relevant line in Swanson's report.

When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw [the] man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Someone will be able to give us the distance between Commercial Rd and the gateway, but it's not far at all. So, either the man was walking particularly slowly, or Schwartz was walking as fast as Leon Goldstein was when observed taking the same path through Berner St. If the former, I can't see this man being the Ripper. If the latter, then why does Schwartz have a habit of being so similar to the man with the black bag?

or

If was pretending to be drunk. This is intentional behaviour, employed to confuse people. Now I am out of my depth but clearly intentional behaviour used to confuse people just before somebody has their throat cut. Well not sure what this means really but I do know as fact that pretending to be drunk has been used by people in the past to achieve something.

I suppose what I am trying to get across is that BSM must have had a reason to interact with Stride so physically. Most people don't go around grabbing others unless there is a reason so he must have thought the situation was serious enough to make a decision to grab her. There is a commotion with Pipe man shouting, Stride on the floor and Schwartz deciding to clear off.

When we were kids and did something wrong we all ran off. It doesn't make sense that BSM, concerned for Stride would go to all the trouble of engaging in a push pull with Stride and then just disappear. If he feared for her safety and was an innocent man he would have stayed around a bit to make sure she was safe wouldn't he. He had just made a big fuss of things.

Why does he disappear so quickly, why as an important witness doesn't he come forward. Why doesn't he call for the police at the time if he was so concerned about Stride going into the club.

I just keep thinking. Schwartz is out the way, Pipeman has disappeared.

There is a moment of quiet in the yard and in the street. An unexpected opportunity.

Throat cut, run off.

Run off? Are we talking JtR here?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi New Waterloo,

I think that BS Man absolutely could have been Stride's killer. NBFN's suggestion that she was mugged is also possible. Or it could have been a member of the club that threw her down because he didn't like her soliciting in front of the club. Or maybe she angered someone who had a romantic or sexual interest in her. But regardless of who it was, I see no reason why we should expect him to stay at the gateway for any period of time after the assault. He may or may not have been drunk, and even if he was, different people act in different ways when they're drunk.

According to Schwartz, there was one other witness, Pipeman, and Pipeman never came forward as a witness. It could be that there was another witness shortly after Schwartz passed that likewise never came forward. But I think most likely BS Man didn't stay near the gateway for long because he had no reason to. He may or not have also had every reason not to.

The mugging theory can explain why the second man never came forward - he too was a mugger and was after whatever the well-dressed man in front of him might have had on him which was valuable. It can therefore explain why Schwartz perceived the two men as possibly being together. It can explain the missing sixpence. It can possibly give a reason for Stride having to resort to soliciting on the street. Was Stride also mugged for other possessions she had on her?

Dr Phillips: The right ear was pierced for an earring, but had not been so injured, and the earring was wanting.

However, it cannot explain how Stride could have removed an earring while holding onto the cachous. Nor can it explain stuff like this.

[FrankO]

Hi Jon,

It's hard to say if they (Diemshutz & Kozebrodski) left together, or 30 seconds or a minute apart. I would say they both ran in the same direction, close enough for Spooner to believe they came past him together.

I agree with your second sentence; that is the impression I get reading the evidence.

It seems more like a mishearing to me. something similar to Barnet saying "hair", when some reporters thought he said "ear".
It's just that Jacobs doesn't sound to my ear like Diemshutz - neither the consonants nor the syllables match.

Although that's true, the thing that makes me inclined to think it was a mishearing - besides the fact that both names have two syllables - is that if Eagle did, in fact, gave the names of both men, then I find it a bit odd that there was no newspaper that gave both names or, at least, two names.

I recall one account where Spooner said he had been stood by the body for nearly 5 minutes before Eagle & the first constable arrived.
Was Spooner the first to touch the face?
That would make a link between Mortimer's statement & other events.

I'm not too hung up on the 4-5 minutes Spooner gave or what Diemschutz stated about when Eagle returned. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Of course, everything would depend on how much later than Diemschutz Eagle actually ran out of the yard and whether he first turned left at the top of Berner Street or immedediately turned right. But I think that even if he ran out 1.5 minutes or so after Diemschutz and first turned left, he wouldn't have arrived back more than 3 minutes after Louis.

Regarding Spooner touching Stride's face/chin, I don't know if he was the first and only one to do so, but the fact that Mortimer's remark that she saw a man touch her face and say it was quite warm fits very well with Spooner's own statement sticks out to me.

All the best,
Frank