The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Shouldn't 'seen' be 'saw'?

I'm still not seeing any arguable difference between the two lines.

Yes, it should be, but I'm wondering if Fanny's grammar made her meaning slightly ambiguous.

... I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

Shouldn't 'tell' be 'told'?

I would suggest reading the two lines to someone who doesn't know the case, to get their interpretations.

[Wickerman]

Yes, it should be, but I'm wondering if Fanny's grammar made her meaning slightly ambiguous.

... I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

Shouldn't 'tell' be 'told'?

I would suggest reading the two lines to someone who doesn't know the case, to get their interpretations.

I know this might sound like I'm being a spoil-sport, but can you tell me what you think each line means, 'cause I'm clearly not as alert as your good self right now, at this time of night.

[Lewis C]

I see what you mean now. I don't think she was speculating, given this from the same interview ...

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

I might not have been clear in my last post. I didn't mean that Mortimer may have been speculating about the man passing with a black bag. The only thing that I think she may have been speculating about is his coming from the club. She did say that he might have come from the club, so by saying "might", she's telling us that it's just a possibility and she's not really sure.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I know this might sound like I'm being a spoil-sport, but can you tell me what you think each line means, 'cause I'm clearly not as alert as your good self right now, at this time of night.

Can I give you a cryptic answer? I know George likes those.

The coroner seems to have had a preference for creating a coherent timeline with no contradictory elements. The glaring omissions from the inquest were Schwartz, Mortimer and Packer. They all have something in common and that is that their testimony would likely have prevented the coroner in his summing up from creating a coherent timeline of events, leading up to the discovery.

My current thinking is that the incident described by Schwartz was kinda sorta what happened, but that the incident was 'relocated' to ~12:45, to cause misunderstanding of what occurred in the quarter hour before the discovery.

At the inquest (hypothetically speaking), Packer would have contradicted Marshall, Schwartz would have contradicted Brown, and Mortimer would have contradicted Schwartz (and possibly Goldstein also). The reason for the inquest absence of Schwartz, Mortimer and Packer could be as simple as Baxter not wanting them there.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I might not have been clear in my last post. I didn't mean that Mortimer may have been speculating about the man passing with a black bag. The only thing that I think she may have been speculating about is his coming from the club. She did say that he might have come from the club, so by saying "might", she's telling us that it's just a possibility and she's not really sure.

I think I understand now! Yes, I agree.

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially.

It seems she was at her door but wasn't sure where the man had come from, but probability suggests to her that it was from the club. Was he trying to sneak away, unnoticed?

By the way, shouldn't 'goes' be 'go'? I think the journalist was trying to convey how she said things, not just what she said. I think Fanny's remarks regarding black bag man, have been misunderstood.

[The Rookie Detective]

I found no account attributed to Mortimer where she makes a distinction, the footsteps either coming or going.
She does identify Diemshutz's cart coming back separate to the footsteps, in fact separated by roughly quarter of an hour.
She heard Diem. come back just minutes before 1:00 am, by her time.

Ah okay.

So if we can't determine the direction of the footsteps, then does that mean that the heavy footsteps could have been the killer fleeing the scene at 12.45am?

It seems to be assumed that the footsteps she heard were going toward the murder scene, but what if they were going the other way?

Could the scene that Schwartz described have actually taken place and after throwing Stride to the floor, BS man moves her a few feet into the darkness, cuts her throat and than heads north up Berner Street?

And then.. could Goldstein have seen a policeman and he instead turns around and quickly heads BACK down Berner Street hurriedly and as he passes the club he looks toward the club (the body already lying there) and then he heads around the corner, seen by Mortimer.

Now obviously BS man and Goldstein are not the same person...

BUT

What if Goldstein and Schwartz ARE the same person (not my original idea) and then the story of BS man throwing Stride to the floor is a work of fiction BUT the man who assaulted Stride WAS actually Goldstein and so he is creating a false narrative with elements of truth, ergo, the perfect lie.

And so, Goldstein murders Stride and then hurriedly heads NORTH because PC Smith has only passed by a few minutes earlier.
He then passes Mrs Mortimer who hears heavy feet pass by...but as Goldstein gets to the end of the road, he sees a policeman in the main road and so retraces his steps BACK down Berner At... Mrs Mortimer then sees him head SOUTH and back past the murder site before he goes around the corner past the board school.

Does this timeline fit?

If Goldstein then asks for help from he club, his brethren then cover for him by placing Lave and going to the police Station with him.
Schwartz/Goldstein then create a story of BS Man and Pipeman who don't actually exist.
The mistake that Schwartz makes is that he says he crossed the road after seeing the assault and then noticed Pipeman who had just cane out of a doorway. But that would mean Pipeman is standing on the wrong side of the road.
This error is a mistake by the story teller.

And so Goldstein to murdered Stride. Perhaps he had come out of the club and saw Stride waiting by the gateway OR he had just come out of one of the flats on he left side of the yard where the cigar makers lived.

Perhaps Goldstein was smoking (like his alto ego pipeman creation was in his story) He offers Stride a puff of his cigarette and she hates the taste . So he gives her some cacous to help her breath.
Stride asked what was in his bag and then he attacks her.


Ransom hypothesis but CAN we establish WHERE Goldstein was prior to him being seen walking SOUTH down Berner Street?

AND...

does the idea that Mrs Mortimer heard Goldstein leave the scene heading north but then he retraces his steps back down Berner Street because there's a policeman there and he needs to find an alternative escape route, and then Mortimer sees him go south...

Does that fit or work in any way?

RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ah okay.

So if we can't determine the direction of the footsteps, then does that mean that the heavy footsteps could have been the killer fleeing the scene at 12.45am?

It seems to be assumed that the footsteps she heard were going toward the murder scene, but what if they were going the other way?

Could the scene that Schwartz described have actually taken place and after throwing Stride to the floor, BS man moves her a few feet into the darkness, cuts her throat and than heads north up Berner Street?

I'm fairly confident Fanny would have known the sound of a policeman on his beat.

And then.. could Goldstein have seen a policeman and he instead turns around and quickly heads BACK down Berner Street hurriedly and as he passes the club he looks toward the club (the body already lying there) and then he heads around the corner, seen by Mortimer.

That's an interesting take on the possible previous witnessing of Goldstein. My impression is that a previous sighting was likely to have been earlier in the evening, as in earlier than 12:30. If Fanny liked to listen to the singing in the club, for example, there is no reason to suppose she were not at her doorstep for part of the hour before midnight. She said black bag man was a stranger to her. I reckon quite a few of the club's well-known members, were quite familiar to her.

Now obviously BS man and Goldstein are not the same person...

BUT

What if Goldstein and Schwartz ARE the same person (not my original idea) and then the story of BS man throwing Stride to the floor is a work of fiction BUT the man who assaulted Stride WAS actually Goldstein and so he is creating a false narrative with elements of truth, ergo, the perfect lie.

One would never guess from other witness accounts that Stride had been thrown to the ground, just prior to her murder.

And so, Goldstein murders Stride and then hurriedly heads NORTH because PC Smith has only passed by a few minutes earlier.
He then passes Mrs Mortimer who hears heavy feet pass by...but as Goldstein gets to the end of the road, he sees a policeman in the main road and so retraces his steps BACK down Berner At... Mrs Mortimer then sees him head SOUTH and back past the murder site before he goes around the corner past the board school.

Does this timeline fit?

It would not take long to hurriedly walk to Commercial Rd and back down and around the school corner.

If Goldstein then asks for help from he club, his brethren then cover for him by placing Lave and going to the police Station with him.
Schwartz/Goldstein then create a story of BS Man and Pipeman who don't actually exist.
The mistake that Schwartz makes is that he says he crossed the road after seeing the assault and then noticed Pipeman who had just cane out of a doorway. But that would mean Pipeman is standing on the wrong side of the road.
This error is a mistake by the story teller.

I believe the location of Pipeman is consistent in both accounts. Roughly where Hampshire Court entrance was, and then he heads south. The mistake in Schwartz's story was to mention crossing the road - he could have just kept walking south if he wanted to avoid getting involved with the confrontation. There are very few residences on the east side of Berner St, south of Fairclough St, so Schwartz was likely heading south-east and would therefore have been chased east on Fairclough - just as press reports suggest.

Schwartz (Star): ... he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb ...

Goldstein (Mortimer): ... a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Ransom hypothesis but CAN we establish WHERE Goldstein was prior to him being seen walking SOUTH down Berner Street?

He was at a Spectacle Alley cafe. Both Schwartz and Goldstein likely entered Berner St on the west (club) side. Their paths through Berner St and beyond are identical.

[Lewis C]

I think I understand now! Yes, I agree.

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially.

It seems she was at her door but wasn't sure where the man had come from, but probability suggests to her that it was from the club. Was he trying to sneak away, unnoticed?

By the way, shouldn't 'goes' be 'go'? I think the journalist was trying to convey how she said things, not just what she said. I think Fanny's remarks regarding black bag man, have been misunderstood.

I don't know about whether or not he was trying to sneak away unnoticed, but I agree that the journalist seems to be trying to convey how she said things, as "go" would have been grammatically correct.

[Wickerman]

Ah okay.

So if we can't determine the direction of the footsteps, then does that mean that the heavy footsteps could have been the killer fleeing the scene at 12.45am?

Unless the killer was, er, Frankenstein , I would expect him to be a little more fleet of foot, as you would if you were trying to escape the scene.

It seems to be assumed that the footsteps she heard were going toward the murder scene, but what if they were going the other way?

I've never assumed either way, coming or going, the only thing is surely they had to be in front of her house, not on the opposite side of the street.

Could the scene that Schwartz described have actually taken place and after throwing Stride to the floor, BS man moves her a few feet into the darkness, cuts her throat and than heads north up Berner Street?

Not what we might describe as 'Ripper-like' then? Just cut-n-run?
And where was Parcel-man?

And then.. could Goldstein have seen a policeman and he instead turns around and quickly heads BACK down Berner Street hurriedly and as he passes the club he looks toward the club (the body already lying there) and then he heads around the corner, seen by Mortimer.

Well, there were exits from Berner St. above 36 Mortimer's house. Between 32 and 30 there was a passage that led west to Back Church Lane, directly opposite is Hampshire Ct. that leads east to Batty St. So, he would have had escape routes close to Mortimer's house.

Now obviously BS man and Goldstein are not the same person...

Glad to hear it

BUT

What if Goldstein and Schwartz ARE the same person (not my original idea) and then the story of BS man throwing Stride to the floor is a work of fiction BUT the man who assaulted Stride WAS actually Goldstein and so he is creating a false narrative with elements of truth, ergo, the perfect lie.

And so, Goldstein murders Stride and then hurriedly heads NORTH because PC Smith has only passed by a few minutes earlier.
He then passes Mrs Mortimer who hears heavy feet pass by...but as Goldstein gets to the end of the road, he sees a policeman in the main road and so retraces his steps BACK down Berner At... Mrs Mortimer then sees him head SOUTH and back past the murder site before he goes around the corner past the board school.

So, Mrs Mortimer hears him go up, but not hear him come down?

Does this timeline fit?

Does this fit Mortimer's time-line? - well, Mortimer does not specify when she saw Goldstein. So we're flexible on that I think.
However, Swanson places Goldstein about 1:00 am. which would mean there was at least 15 minutes between him going up then coming back down.
We would need to know what took him so long as Berner is only about 350 ft long, it would not take 15 minutes to go up and down.
I guess he could have gone for a quick cuppa coffee in Spectacle Alley?

If Goldstein then asks for help from he club, his brethren then cover for him by placing Lave and going to the police Station with him.
Schwartz/Goldstein then create a story of BS Man and Pipeman who don't actually exist.
The mistake that Schwartz makes is that he says he crossed the road after seeing the assault and then noticed Pipeman who had just cane out of a doorway. But that would mean Pipeman is standing on the wrong side of the road.
This error is a mistake by the story teller.

And so Goldstein to murdered Stride. Perhaps he had come out of the club and saw Stride waiting by the gateway OR he had just come out of one of the flats on he left side of the yard where the cigar makers lived.

Perhaps Goldstein was smoking (like his alto ego pipeman creation was in his story) He offers Stride a puff of his cigarette and she hates the taste . So he gives her some cacous to help her breath.
Stride asked what was in his bag and then he attacks her.


Ransom hypothesis but CAN we establish WHERE Goldstein was prior to him being seen walking SOUTH down Berner Street?

We only have his word for it - the cafe in Spectacle Alley, barely 5 minutes walk away.

AND...

does the idea that Mrs Mortimer heard Goldstein leave the scene heading north but then he retraces his steps back down Berner Street because there's a policeman there and he needs to find an alternative escape route, and then Mortimer sees him go south...

Does that fit or work in any way?

RD

It might, but there's no actual evidence to connect Goldstein with the crime. He was there around the time, like Lechmere, or Hutchinson, Richardson, even Cadosch, and so on.

[GBinOz]

does the idea that Mrs Mortimer heard Goldstein leave the scene heading north but then he retraces his steps back down Berner Street because there's a policeman there and he needs to find an alternative escape route, and then Mortimer sees him go south...

Does that fit or work in any way?

RD

Hi RD,

My impression is that the footfalls that Mortimer heard were those of Smith. A PC's footfalls on a beat are slow and regular, and not, I would think, like those of a man escaping a murder site. Also it would mean that Mortimer didn't hear Smith. Also, the police checked and Goldstein had been to the Spectacle Cafe. So your scenario would only work for me if Goldstein heading north (to establish an alibi at the Spectacle Cafe) was established by different means....say being spotted by Mrs Artisan.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know about whether or not he was trying to sneak away unnoticed, but I agree that the journalist seems to be trying to convey how she said things, as "go" would have been grammatically correct.

I can't see Fanny saying things like ...

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously ...

Someone with not so good grammar would not use the word 'whom'.
I can imagine Fanny saying this though ...

... the only man I seen who had passed through the street previously ...

Goldstein 2 - Schwartz 0?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Swanson: about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before.

At that hour being ~1am Sep 30.

Which of these is true?...

We only have his word for it - the cafe in Spectacle Alley, barely 5 minutes walk away.

Also, the police checked and Goldstein had been to the Spectacle Cafe.

[Wickerman]

Swanson: about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before.

At that hour being ~1am Sep 30.

Which of these is true?...

Hi Andrew, as you can see Swanson wrote that Goldstein "stated", which is why I take Swanson at his word.
Goldstein "stated" he had come from the cafe in Spectacle Alley.
It might be reasonable to suppose the police checked his claim, I don't recall reading anything to that effect, but we do know he made that claim.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew, as you can see Swanson wrote that Goldstein "stated", which is why I take Swanson at his word.
Goldstein "stated" he had come from the cafe in Spectacle Alley.
It might be reasonable to suppose the police checked his claim, I don't recall reading anything to that effect, but we do know he made that claim.

Thanks Jon. The same must be true of the bag's contents - we only have his word for it.

[The Rookie Detective]

Okay...so how does the following hypothesis work...


When Fanny opens her door around 1am and sees Goldstein walking hurriedly towards the club before turning right around the corner near the board school.

What if...she sees Schwartz?


NBFN suggested that Goldstein and Schwartz could be the same person and here's why I think that particular notion is interesting...


IF Goldstein and Schwartz were the same person, then by the same token, Mortimer saw Schwartz...

And that is potentially very significant because IF it was Schwartz who was seen around 1am walking down Berner street, and then Schwartz's statement of seeing Stride being assaulted was actually true; then could that explain why nobody else witnessed the attack on Stride...because the incident didn;t happen at 12.45am..it happened moments after Mortimer saw Schwartz/Goldstein walk hurriedly down the street.


Now Schwartz said he was almost at the gateway when he saw BS man attack Stride. The distance between Mrs Mortimer's house and the gateway is only around 20 yards or so.
Now WHEN Mrs Mortimer saw the man with the bag walking hurriedly before looking up at the club, she may have witnessed Schwartz noticing BS man and then walking hurriedly past the gateway.

In other words, when Mortimer saw Goldstein/Schwarts look up at the club, that may have been the exact moment when Stride was assaulted and NOT at 12.45am.


But why then would Schwartz say 12.45am instead of around 1am?


Well perhaps the following is also true...


When Goldstein saw Stride being attacked, he hurriedly walked past and then went around the corner to avoid the scene; similar to Schwartz fleeing the scene in his statement.

Now what would be the reason for Goldstein to invent Schwartz to state a time of 12.45am?


Well IF Goldstein realized that the man who attacked Stride was someone he recognized from the club, then he approached Wess and told him he saw the attack. Wess in an attempt to sweep things under the carpet then told Goldstein to go to the police, but not JUST to try and explain him being in Berner Street with his bag, but also to try and take the focus away from members of the club.
Goldstein goes to the police AFTER he knows he was spotted and because he knows he was ssen around the time of the murder at 1am, he cant lie to the police and say he was there earlier. He then decides to go to the police as a Jew named Schwartz and then tells the police of an assault occuring at 12.45am INSTEAD of the actual time the assault took place at 1am.

That would explain why nobody else witnesses the assault at 12.45am...because that time was falsely given to detract from the fact that Goldstein had witnessed the actual assault 15 minutes later.

Now WHO could Goldstein have seen?

Well, let's look at Parcel man...now he could have been the killer, but he could have also have been Eagle, who returned to the club at the same time that PC Smith saw parcelman.
Noe being a guy with a girlfriend/fiancee; he would have been unlikely to have admitted talking to Stride as he went back towards the side door of the club. Stride was there and Eagle must have seen her as he walked through the gateway.
She wasn't on the floor, because he spoke to her and just didnt want to admit it for fear of bringing suspicion upon himself.

I suggest that the man Joseph Lave; who gave varying duration as to his time spent in the yard could also have been parcel man, but was more likely to have been the man who assaulted her.

Now this brings us back to WHY was Stride standing outside the club/by the gateway to the yard?

Well she may have been recently dating someone from the club; perhaps the man seen with her exiting the Bricklayers Arms then went with Stride to the club, but being a non-Jew the man asked her to wait outside while he went inside to take care of business.


And perhaps the reasons WHY Mrs Mortimer saw nobody enter the yard AND the reason why the killer appeared to vanish when Diemschultz entered the yard, is because AFTER cutting her throat, the killer went BACK into the club and so NEVER came out of the gateway the entire time.


The killer may have had some cachous in the club and he stepped out to kiss her...BUT he was a SMOKER...and AFTER kissing her, he gave her some cachous...and then he cut her throat. Like a kiss of death.

Now when Goldstein invented Schwartz to concoct the story of Bs Man and Pipeman, THAT story would have held elements of truth in order to better sell the lie.

And so the truth would be that...

As Goldstein returned to Berner Street from the coffee shop, he walked towards the club door. At the exact time that Mortimer then sees Goldstein, Goldstein has just seen Stride being attacked and so hurried across the road just like in his story as Schwartz. The crucial clue being that the time of 12.45am is clearly NOT correct based on all the other witnesses statements.
And so maybe Schwartz story is partly true but the timing deliberately changed to negate the fact that Goldstein almost certainly saw her killer.

Now that would suggest that Stride wasn;t a victim of JTR becuase AFTER killing Stride, the Ripper would have need to have gone to Mitre Square.
However, IF the killer did indeed go back into the club, he could then have been one of the men who ran out to go and look for a policeman.

Are there any of the club members who didn't return back to the club AFTER Stride's body was found?

The man who killed Stride could have used the "let's go look for help" as a means by which to escape and had towards Mitre Square. That is of course only relevant IF Stride was murdered by JTR.

Are there also ANY of the club members who DIDN'T actively go out and look for police? That could be another way to escape the scene undetected.


And so...thought please?



RD