Originally posted by c.d.
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The Stride Murder
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Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
I'd suggest that a woman dossing at Flower and Dean Street would not spend 6d on a flower and cachous.
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Originally posted by c.d. View Post
The cachous do seem to present a problem. If Schwartz witnessed the start of a violent attack as some believe when did the B.S. man give her the cachous? After he threw her to the ground and threatened Scwartz? That seems a little incongruous.
And if he gave them to her before the B.S. man attacked they somehow managed to survive being thrown to the ground despite being wrapped in tissue.
And finally, if Schwartz is correct and Stride was not killed on the street where she was seen by him but back in the alley did she go voluntarily with the man who had just violently attacked her? And if dragged and pulled by the B.S. man to her death would she not have tried to fend him off? And yet, the cachous still wrapped in tissue somehow survived her efforts to fight for her life.
c.d.
In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that somebody in Liz's position was spending money on cachous, and we know Liz appreciated a good old booze up. In fact, at the inquest, we are told that Liz was in the pub at half 6 on the Saturday night before the Saturday night/Sunday morning when she was murdered. There's an indication that Liz with money in her back pocket is Liz in the pub.
In the event Liz didn't buy those cachous, and I doubt very much she did; then someone gave them to her. It's reasonable to think that Liz would have taken one of those cachous out of the wrapper when given to her, except she didn't; the wrapper was unopened.
That tells me that Liz was attacked in that short time between being given the cachous and looking down to get one out.
There is a lot to explain after that, but that simply means the other lot to explain is not easily explained. It doesn't at all detract from what looks likely in terms of the cachous and the swift attack.
To answer your question: in my opinion Schwartz and associates were not part of this event, it's an entirely different attack in nature. Amicable right up until the point when Liz didn't know what hit her and she didn't see it coming.
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
A woman trying to impress a new or potentially new cleaning client might produce a bit more of the presentable image. Were you aware that when Liz was back in Goteborg she got a legitimate job caring for some kids, though she had been on a known street working womens roster kept by the local police for some time,.. and she had her name stricken from that street worker file. She didnt want to do that. She had to, and she did, but like many women of that time discovered, good options for single women were slim pickins'.Liz had been employed in the preceding weeks, maybe that economic stability helped her ditch Kidney, but she even made money that day, and although she had the doss money from that work, she intended to be gone all night. As was indicated by her leaving the fabric in someones hands for good measure.She had paid attention to her appearance by not just wearing her working clothes, wanting to lint brush her skirt. And she is found with a flower on her breast and cachous in her hand. Seems a bit hopeful dont you think? Not resigned to having to trod the cobbles all night.
It is highly unlikely that Liz bought cachous.
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I am going to respectfully disagree with you, Mac. I understand your point and I would agree if this were in any way an extravagant purchase but it was just penny candy. And it is not like she had a pound of it or something. Just a few in her hand. I can't rule out her buying it.
I see street people all the time who look like they don't have a pot to pee in buying cigarettes which are relatively expensive especially for someone in their position.
c.d.
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Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
Liz was dossing at Flower and Dean Street, Liz appreciated a booze up. The most desperate people spent their money in the pub in an attempt to get what little enjoyment they could.
It is highly unlikely that Liz bought cachous.
So whether you find it highly unlikely or not its a very reasonable premise. Whereas yours is that assumes all whores are the same, an attitude that actually says more about who you are, than who they were as individuals.
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Originally posted by c.d. View PostI am going to respectfully disagree with you, Mac. I understand your point and I would agree if this were in any way an extravagant purchase but it was just penny candy. And it is not like she had a pound of it or something. Just a few in her hand. I can't rule out her buying it.
I see street people all the time who look like they don't have a pot to pee in buying cigarettes which are relatively expensive especially for someone in their position.
c.d.
I'd simply point out the lives these women lived, particularly women dossing at the supposed worst street in London.
Harsh and miserable, boozing was pretty important to alleviate the situation.
Cachous? Sweets were a luxury even for the working class poor who were better off than Liz.
It may be worth reading about just what lives the Victorians lived.
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Originally posted by c.d. View PostThere is also no evidence that she solicited anyone on that night.
As has been stated so many times before that is not a requirement for being a Ripper victim. She only had to be approached by him and all bets are off.
c.d.
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
But Liz had steady employment the weeks leading up to her death
We're not talking about winning the lottery and a life changing amount of money here.
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Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
It may be worth reading about just what lives the Victorians lived.
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Interesting answer, since almost everyone here includes street walking on the night they are killed as component of his kill choices. Since only women who were forced to walk the streets and go into the dark with strangers would be available to him after the first kill or 2, I wonder what it is you think that "decent" women were doing out on the streets in the middle of the night during a string of unsolved murders of women walking the streets at night. Gonzo journalism?
c.d.
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Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
Aye, and we are told that Liz was in the pub at half 6 the previous Saturday. Old habits don't change simply because you have a few more pennies. Liz was known to like a booze up. A few extra pennies didn't mean she could escape her situation: same issues and so same solution.
We're not talking about winning the lottery and a life changing amount of money here.
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Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
Aye, and we are told that Liz was in the pub at half 6 the previous Saturday. Old habits don't change simply because you have a few more pennies. Liz was known to like a booze up. A few extra pennies didn't mean she could escape her situation: same issues and so same solution.
We're not talking about winning the lottery and a life changing amount of money here.
c.d.
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Originally posted by c.d. View Post
Again, as has been pointed out to you so many times, Stride did not have to be actively soliciting that night. Date/cleaning/whatever is a moot point. We have no way of knowing her response if approached by Jack. That is the point.
c.d.
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