The Stride Murder

[Abby Normal]

and if anyone mentions the stupid cashoo I will reach through the internet and slap you. lol

Says the man who can't complete a sentence without including the mention of a peaked cap.

c.d.

yes because i know the difference between a clue and a red herring.

[Michael W Richards]

I'd suggest that a woman dossing at Flower and Dean Street would not spend 6d on a flower and cachous.

A woman trying to impress a new or potentially new cleaning client might produce a bit more of the presentable image. Were you aware that when Liz was back in Goteborg she got a legitimate job caring for some kids, though she had been on a known street working womens roster kept by the local police for some time,.. and she had her name stricken from that street worker file. She didnt want to do that. She had to, and she did, but like many women of that time discovered, good options for single women were slim pickins'.Liz had been employed in the preceding weeks, maybe that economic stability helped her ditch Kidney, but she even made money that day, and although she had the doss money from that work, she intended to be gone all night. As was indicated by her leaving the fabric in someones hands for good measure.She had paid attention to her appearance by not just wearing her working clothes, wanting to lint brush her skirt. And she is found with a flower on her breast and cachous in her hand. Seems a bit hopeful dont you think? Not resigned to having to trod the cobbles all night.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The cachous do seem to present a problem. If Schwartz witnessed the start of a violent attack as some believe when did the B.S. man give her the cachous? After he threw her to the ground and threatened Scwartz? That seems a little incongruous.

And if he gave them to her before the B.S. man attacked they somehow managed to survive being thrown to the ground despite being wrapped in tissue.

And finally, if Schwartz is correct and Stride was not killed on the street where she was seen by him but back in the alley did she go voluntarily with the man who had just violently attacked her? And if dragged and pulled by the B.S. man to her death would she not have tried to fend him off? And yet, the cachous still wrapped in tissue somehow survived her efforts to fight for her life.

c.d.

These people were desperate. Their lives were miserable and harsh. Whatever money they earned was boozed away in an attempt to forget their woes and just have a bit of excitement in their lives.

In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that somebody in Liz's position was spending money on cachous, and we know Liz appreciated a good old booze up. In fact, at the inquest, we are told that Liz was in the pub at half 6 on the Saturday night before the Saturday night/Sunday morning when she was murdered. There's an indication that Liz with money in her back pocket is Liz in the pub.

In the event Liz didn't buy those cachous, and I doubt very much she did; then someone gave them to her. It's reasonable to think that Liz would have taken one of those cachous out of the wrapper when given to her, except she didn't; the wrapper was unopened.

That tells me that Liz was attacked in that short time between being given the cachous and looking down to get one out.

There is a lot to explain after that, but that simply means the other lot to explain is not easily explained. It doesn't at all detract from what looks likely in terms of the cachous and the swift attack.

To answer your question: in my opinion Schwartz and associates were not part of this event, it's an entirely different attack in nature. Amicable right up until the point when Liz didn't know what hit her and she didn't see it coming.

[Fleetwood Mac]

A woman trying to impress a new or potentially new cleaning client might produce a bit more of the presentable image. Were you aware that when Liz was back in Goteborg she got a legitimate job caring for some kids, though she had been on a known street working womens roster kept by the local police for some time,.. and she had her name stricken from that street worker file. She didnt want to do that. She had to, and she did, but like many women of that time discovered, good options for single women were slim pickins'.Liz had been employed in the preceding weeks, maybe that economic stability helped her ditch Kidney, but she even made money that day, and although she had the doss money from that work, she intended to be gone all night. As was indicated by her leaving the fabric in someones hands for good measure.She had paid attention to her appearance by not just wearing her working clothes, wanting to lint brush her skirt. And she is found with a flower on her breast and cachous in her hand. Seems a bit hopeful dont you think? Not resigned to having to trod the cobbles all night.

Liz was dossing at Flower and Dean Street, Liz appreciated a booze up. The most desperate people spent their money in the pub in an attempt to get what little enjoyment they could.

It is highly unlikely that Liz bought cachous.

[c.d.]

I am going to respectfully disagree with you, Mac. I understand your point and I would agree if this were in any way an extravagant purchase but it was just penny candy. And it is not like she had a pound of it or something. Just a few in her hand. I can't rule out her buying it.

I see street people all the time who look like they don't have a pot to pee in buying cigarettes which are relatively expensive especially for someone in their position.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Liz was dossing at Flower and Dean Street, Liz appreciated a booze up. The most desperate people spent their money in the pub in an attempt to get what little enjoyment they could.

It is highly unlikely that Liz bought cachous.

I suppose its easier to just generalize and lump Liz in with a Polly type for example, she had her doss then drank it away several times that night, as she herself said. Polly was soliciting that night also, as per her words. So was Annie. But Liz had steady employment the weeks leading up to her death, she had split with Kidney who she had most of her drunk and disorderlies with, she is found sober, with what her lodgemates said was "her good evening wear", she even asked to borrow a lint brush for her skirt, she leaves with no flower and no cachous but she had her 6d. She is found without the 6d, but she now has a flower arrangement and cachous. There is also no evidence that she solicited anyone on that night.

So whether you find it highly unlikely or not its a very reasonable premise. Whereas yours is that assumes all whores are the same, an attitude that actually says more about who you are, than who they were as individuals.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I am going to respectfully disagree with you, Mac. I understand your point and I would agree if this were in any way an extravagant purchase but it was just penny candy. And it is not like she had a pound of it or something. Just a few in her hand. I can't rule out her buying it.

I see street people all the time who look like they don't have a pot to pee in buying cigarettes which are relatively expensive especially for someone in their position.

c.d.

No bother, C.D.

I'd simply point out the lives these women lived, particularly women dossing at the supposed worst street in London.

Harsh and miserable, boozing was pretty important to alleviate the situation.

Cachous? Sweets were a luxury even for the working class poor who were better off than Liz.

It may be worth reading about just what lives the Victorians lived.

[c.d.]

There is also no evidence that she solicited anyone on that night.

As has been stated so many times before that is not a requirement for being a Ripper victim. She only had to be approached by him and all bets are off.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

There is also no evidence that she solicited anyone on that night.

As has been stated so many times before that is not a requirement for being a Ripper victim. She only had to be approached by him and all bets are off.

c.d.

Interesting answer, since almost everyone here includes street walking on the night they are killed as component of his kill choices. Since only women who were forced to walk the streets and go into the dark with strangers would be available to him after the first kill or 2, I wonder what it is you think that "decent" women were doing out on the streets in the middle of the night during a string of unsolved murders of women walking the streets at night. Gonzo journalism?

[Fleetwood Mac]

But Liz had steady employment the weeks leading up to her death

Aye, and we are told that Liz was in the pub at half 6 the previous Saturday. Old habits don't change simply because you have a few more pennies. Liz was known to like a booze up. A few extra pennies didn't mean she could escape her situation: same issues and so same solution.

We're not talking about winning the lottery and a life changing amount of money here.

[Michael W Richards]

It may be worth reading about just what lives the Victorians lived.

Do you imagine that he hasnt done that already, or was it just you? It may be worth reading for you about the actual victims lives and backgrounds in these cases since your stereotypical assumptions are broad, unsophisticated and crude.

[c.d.]

Interesting answer, since almost everyone here includes street walking on the night they are killed as component of his kill choices. Since only women who were forced to walk the streets and go into the dark with strangers would be available to him after the first kill or 2, I wonder what it is you think that "decent" women were doing out on the streets in the middle of the night during a string of unsolved murders of women walking the streets at night. Gonzo journalism?

Again, as has been pointed out to you so many times, Stride did not have to be actively soliciting that night. Date/cleaning/whatever is a moot point. We have no way of knowing her response if approached by Jack. That is the point.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Aye, and we are told that Liz was in the pub at half 6 the previous Saturday. Old habits don't change simply because you have a few more pennies. Liz was known to like a booze up. A few extra pennies didn't mean she could escape her situation: same issues and so same solution.

We're not talking about winning the lottery and a life changing amount of money here.

We are talking about the difference between a woman who has steady work and is sober, about a woman who went out of her way to be disassociated with a street walker lifestyle in the past. Perhaps you dont understand how much pride in ones self and self reliance can mean to people who are downtrodden and desperate. The vast majority of the single women who resorted to prostitution to support themselves and perhaps a child were not as you characterize. Many were alcoholics, drug addicted, lacking any education or training, but not all ran to the bar every chance they had like you suggest.

[c.d.]

Aye, and we are told that Liz was in the pub at half 6 the previous Saturday. Old habits don't change simply because you have a few more pennies. Liz was known to like a booze up. A few extra pennies didn't mean she could escape her situation: same issues and so same solution.

We're not talking about winning the lottery and a life changing amount of money here.

Exactly.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Again, as has been pointed out to you so many times, Stride did not have to be actively soliciting that night. Date/cleaning/whatever is a moot point. We have no way of knowing her response if approached by Jack. That is the point.

c.d.

And what women not working the streets that Fall would be out at midnight? And would any woman who didnt have to go somewhere in the dark with a stranger do that during a unsolved murder series of women who did have to do that? Just curious why you think women alone out at night during a series of unsolved murders in that specific area wouldnt be primarily soliciting? In Liz Strides case, I personally dont think she was doing that. But I do think women avoided being out at night that Fall, and the ones that couldnt, were Jacks.