The Stride Murder

[Abby Normal]

No Frances?

nah. a little too far out time wise and sadler probably killed her. he was a hot mess that night.

[Aethelwulf]

Too much emphasis is placed on minor details. We know from the experience of serial killers that they do not followed rigid rules and they do not even use the same weapons at times.

The wise money to me is that Liz was murdered by Jack and there were more than 5.

I think if we were to be presented with a full list of the people the ripper attacked we'd be suprised. Rather than seeing autumn 1888 as the beginning of something, I suspect it was actually the end of something. I wouldn't be at all suprised if he'd killed, possibly many times, before 1888. I would take a punt that he started out as a stangler, other random knife attacks, not ripper, perhaps like millwood.

[Wickerman]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make, Michael. She might have been on a date. She might have been cleaning. She might have been handing out Bible tracks. Doesn't matter. It is a moot point. Jack would have no way of knowing why she was out and it is reasonable to assume she might have been soliciting. So he approaches her.

c.d.

Do you think there is room for consideration as to whether he simply pounced on any woman he came across, or possibly struck up a conversation with her to find out if she was a prostitute?
As opposed to a nurse on her way home from work, or a midwife on her way home, or perhaps a shift worker on her way to work.
Prostitutes were not the only females out after dark.

[Wickerman]

That is extravagant, Jon, to say the least....

Yes, it's more of an attempt to explain why the packet was found between her thumb & forefinger, as opposed to the palm of her hand.
That small detail seems to be ignored.

The likelihood is that Liz was given those cachous and almost immediately lost her life.

Dr Blackwell tells us the cachous were still in the wrapper, meaning Liz didn't have the time to get one out.

Which suggests the supposed Schwartz and associates episode has served to confuse.

I expect Blackwell/Phillips would have mentioned the fact if there had been traces of cachous found in her mouth at the autopsy. Though, if I recall, the autopsy was only conducted some 30+ hours after the murder.

[Wickerman]

The cachous do seem to present a problem. If Schwartz witnessed the start of a violent attack as some believe when did the B.S. man give her the cachous? After he threw her to the ground and threatened Scwartz? That seems a little incongruous.

And if he gave them to her before the B.S. man attacked they somehow managed to survive being thrown to the ground despite being wrapped in tissue.

And finally, if Schwartz is correct and Stride was not killed on the street where she was seen by him but back in the alley did she go voluntarily with the man who had just violently attacked her? And if dragged and pulled by the B.S. man to her death would she not have tried to fend him off? And yet, the cachous still wrapped in tissue somehow survived her efforts to fight for her life.

c.d.

They should have been found scattered all over the yard, or probably not found at all.

[Wickerman]

These people were desperate. Their lives were miserable and harsh. Whatever money they earned was boozed away in an attempt to forget their woes and just have a bit of excitement in their lives.

In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that somebody in Liz's position was spending money on cachous, and we know Liz appreciated a good old booze up. In fact, at the inquest, we are told that Liz was in the pub at half 6 on the Saturday night before the Saturday night/Sunday morning when she was murdered. There's an indication that Liz with money in her back pocket is Liz in the pub.

In the event Liz didn't buy those cachous, and I doubt very much she did; then someone gave them to her. It's reasonable to think that Liz would have taken one of those cachous out of the wrapper when given to her, except she didn't; the wrapper was unopened.

That tells me that Liz was attacked in that short time between being given the cachous and looking down to get one out.

There is a lot to explain after that, but that simply means the other lot to explain is not easily explained. It doesn't at all detract from what looks likely in terms of the cachous and the swift attack.

To answer your question: in my opinion Schwartz and associates were not part of this event, it's an entirely different attack in nature. Amicable right up until the point when Liz didn't know what hit her and she didn't see it coming.

It's a shame Packer was never asked if the man had bought any cachous along with the grapes.

[Wickerman]

What would a woman like Stride do after an attack (maybe an "attempted robbery") like this if BS Man was not her killer?

My guess would be do nothing. If it was just a little street hassle (and I think it was) it was par for the course. A woman soliciting in Whitechapel who called it a night at the first drop of rain would starve to death.

c.d.

Yes, women were used to being roughed up by men.

[Mark J D]

Cachous? Sweets were a luxury even for the working class poor who were better off than Liz.

It may be worth reading about just what lives the Victorians lived.

If cachous -- a late C19 arrival, I gather -- were not just 'sweets' but actively freshened the breath, might they not be considered something of a necessary item for a woman in poverty who was out to meet a man, whether she was soliciting for sex or expecting a more normal 'date'?

Mark D.

[The Rookie Detective]

Am I correct that the alleged witness; Matthew Packer, only changed his story after he was subsequently interviewed/hounded by Charles Le Grand; the so-called "private Investigator" alleged to have worked for the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee?

Le Grand himself was a rogue and was later convicted of blackmail; he had a thing for blackmailing and threatening women with money. He was also alleged to have worked with Albert Bachert; the fantasist who claimed he took over George Lusk's role as head of the committee, but which can't be officially corroborated. The Lusk-led committee as an entity disbanded and so the actions of Le Grand could be construed as unsanctioned.

Prior to Le Grand's intervention, Matthew Packer offered no evidence in relation to a man and woman he sold grapes to.

To me, there's a possibility that Le Grand threatened Packer to create a story that could be perpetuated in the press and further develop the myth of the ripper that Bachert fantasized and obsessed about.

In other words, I would not rely on any evidence extracted from a witness after the likes of Le Grand had spoken with him. It makes Packer's evidence flawed and I think that Le Grand had an ulterior motive due to his association with Bachert.

Le Grand was also known to have a violent streak and I would suggest that there's also a scenario where Le Grand was BS man and Bachert was Pipeman. Le Grand knew that Packer has identified him earlier and intercepted him by telling Packer to concoct a different description of a man who never existed.


For me Stride wasn't a JTR victim because I believe that Bachert orchestrated the letter referring to the double event; Bachert subsequently wrote JTR-style letters to himself and the press didn't buy it, neither did the police.

Bachert may have used Le Grand to act out his fantasy of killing someone, ergo, Stride, in an attempt to mimic his letter for a double event.

The fact that Eddowes was murdered the same night is of course a very big coincidence indeed.


But for me, McKenzie and Coles were more likely ripper victims than Stride.

The only reasons why Stride is on balance still considered a JTR victim, is because of the timing of the double event in relation to the letter (which might be fake) and that she was killed before MJK, who some see as the pinnacle of his killing spree (I don't believe he stopped after MJK)


Thoughts?


RD

[Michael W Richards]

And for all that we know her killer might have previously seen her soliciting and recognised her when he saw her. If she told him that she was actually waiting for someone he might have thought “yeah right,” and felt rejected, resulting in anger kicking in. Whether he was the ripper or not. We have no way of knowing. I don’t understand how someone can be so certain that this wasn’t a ripper murder?

Actually I dont think thats a scenario that can be ruled out at this point. Quite possible actually. And on that last line, no ripping, no ripper. Its not that complicated.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Actually I dont think thats a scenario that can be ruled out at this point. Quite possible actually. And on that last line, no ripping, no ripper. Its not that complicated.

Unless he was interrupted which is entirely possible and cannot be disproven.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael!

What would a woman like Stride do after an attack (maybe an "attempted robbery") like this if BS Man was not her killer?

She was murdered in the yard a few minutes later, so she went with her killer into the yard shortly after she was attacked at the gates of the yard.

Inside the mind of Stride I would have leave this place immediately afterwards. However, it did not happen. If BS Man was not the killer, her killer approached her immediately after BS Man went away. There was no time to leave the place. Iīm not sure whether Stride had sex that night but I guess she need some money now, money for the Doss House at Flower and Dean Street ("as soon as possible back to the Lodging House after this evening" were, maybe, her thoughts?). I can imagine she did not expect to get some money there where she was attacked, rather somewhere else.

It is possible that "Pipeman" returned, she the one who addressed him to get some money. There was no need to say: Letīs go elsewhere! This was the place where she had met him before (maybe the couple Brown had seen), the man who gave her the cachous. A man who flet with another man (Schwartz) when she was attacked by BS Man. A coward, harmless, would never harm a fly, an "easy victim". She felt safe, not guessing that she was the easy victim.

It might be that the killer realised, after killing her: "this is not the situation I prefer, I donīt feel comfortable, it feels wrong, this is not my territory, I have to fix it" and went away, not interrupted by someone else.

Any thoughts?

Karsten.

I really dont think there was any BSM, Pipeman or Israel, at least not in the way he describes it. I think she went into the passageway alone just after 12:35 when Smith saw her, to wait for...a person? Mrs D to call her in to clean?...whatever. Its then that she meets a man who, as in Herlocks premise, might have thought she was there to solicit. When she starts to be worried about being in there alone with this man, she turns and heads for the gates..he grabs the scarf, twists it then pulls, then slides the knife across her throat while still holding the scarf, which he then releases. Cut from behind while she faces the open gates...Just like Blackwell suggested it happened.

[Mark J D]

I think she went into the passageway alone just after 12:35 when Smith saw her, to wait for...a person? Mrs D to call her in to clean?...whatever.

I acknowledge that observant Jews wouldn't have cleaned on the Shabbat (Saturday), and might have wanted a 'Shabbes goy' to do it; but (i) surely the IWMES crowd wasn't at all religious, and (ii) if Stride was going to be standing over a sink, or kneeling down with a bucket and a scrubbing brush, would she really have dressed up to that apparent extent, freshened breath included?

Genuine question. I do want to see all avenues explored.

Mark D.

[S.Brett]

What would a woman like Stride do after an attack (maybe an "attempted robbery") like this if BS Man was not her killer?

My guess would be do nothing. If it was just a little street hassle (and I think it was) it was par for the course. A woman soliciting in Whitechapel who called it a night at the first drop of rain would starve to death.

c.d.

Yes, women were used to being roughed up by men.

Thank you both!

Sounds logical.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think if we were to be presented with a full list of the people the ripper attacked we'd be suprised.

I agree, although I personally wouldn't be surprised.