The Stride Murder

[Elamarna]

Swanson disagrees with you in his report. He obviously allows time for a killer other than the B.S. man.

c.d.

Given the approx timing of the attack by BS man, and the impossibility of establishing an exact TOD, we are of course left with the possibility of a 2nd attacker. It would be remiss of Swanson not to allow for such.
However, the probability is that BS man was her killer.
People don't like.

Steve

[c.d.]

Hi Abby,

I agree that there wouldn't have been time for her to find another punter, but there would have been time for someone who was already there to have killed her.

Or who was very close by and arrived shortly after the B.S. man had left.

c.d.

[Lewis C]

Or who was very close by and arrived shortly after the B.S. man had left.

c.d.

Agreed.

[Wickerman]

I would agree with that with respect to Anderson and McNaughton. But Swanson was writing an official report within days of the incident with all the facts at his fingertips. If he didn't believe the timeline allowed for another killer other than the B.S. man why would he mention it as being possible?

c.d.

So doesn't the same concession apply to Macnaghten, assuming we are talking about his Memorandum. Mac. was still on the job in 1894 when he wrote it?
He had all the facts at his fingertips.

[Wickerman]

Given the approx timing of the attack by BS man, and the impossibility of establishing an exact TOD, we are of course left with the possibility of a 2nd attacker. It would be remiss of Swanson not to allow for such.
However, the probability is that BS man was her killer.
People don't like.

Steve

But Steve, Stride's feet, being towards the gate, were something like 6-7 feet? (Re Eagle) inside the yard, or at least well beyond the extent of an open gate which was about 4.5 ft wide.
Not, what could be described as between the gates, and no suggestion she crawled or was dragged any distance.

How did her body end up so far from the entrance?

(Edit: Blackwell says her feet were 3 yds (9 feet) from the entrance, so even further)

[Elamarna]

But Steve, Stride's feet, being towards the gate, were something like 6-7 feet? (Re Eagle) inside the yard, or at least well beyond the extent of an open gate which was about 4.5 ft wide.
Not, what could be described as between the gates, and no suggestion she crawled or was dragged any distance.

How did her body end up so far from the entrance?

Thats not hard Jon, Schwartz only comments on a few specific moments.
The attack continues after Schwartz looks away, her position simply shows where the attacked ended.

The exact location is of course disputed in the two reports, and 6-7 feet is only a few steps.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But Steve, Stride's feet, being towards the gate, were something like 6-7 feet? (Re Eagle) inside the yard, or at least well beyond the extent of an open gate which was about 4.5 ft wide.
Not, what could be described as between the gates, and no suggestion she crawled or was dragged any distance.

How did her body end up so far from the entrance?

(Edit: Blackwell says her feet were 3 yds (9 feet) from the entrance, so even further)

Probably as you've already suggested - someone in Dutfield's Yard did it. Although everyone will think it was the BS-man, thanks to Schwartz's story. How convenient for the murderer.

A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane. The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police.

How convenient that an interpreter was at hand.

A couple of buddies helping each other out?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thats not hard Jon, Schwartz only comments on a few specific moments.
The attack continues after Schwartz looks away, her position simply shows where the attacked ended.

The exact location is of course disputed in the two reports, and 6-7 feet is only a few steps.

The attack continues, and still no one hears anything suspicious.

Mrs Diemschitz: I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave.

Schwartz's story is not credible.

[Wickerman]

(Steve)
You realize "the footway" is what Victorians called the sidewalk, or pavement in UK today.
The assault happened outside the gates.

This is from Swanson's report.

"....had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly."

We're accustomed to thinking of the assault taking place between the gates, when the report actually says it was further forward, on the footpath where she was assaulted, but her body is found 9 ft (Blackwell) inside the yard.

The press version says the man pushed her back into the passage, but nothing else, no details of an assault.

[Wickerman]

I should have ended that last post by making the point, I see sufficient time (10-15 mins?) and distance (from the initial assault to where the body was found), to account for some activity or some other person's involvement that we are not aware of.

[Trevor Marriott]

Pardon?
Stride is after Nichols, Abberline was clearly involved .
And it's NOT hearsay, it's in an internal memo which was clearly used to write a letter to the Home office, how on earth is that Hearsay Trevor.



Again pardon?

Because he was not called to the inquest it does not mean he did not given a statement. Coming from.a former police officer that's astounding.
If he was not called, maybe it was at the request of the police. It would of course be entirely Baxter's decision; but if that were the case, it's highly unlikely his statement would be made public.
I find the lack of apparent knowledge here astounding.

Steve

I must apologise for the misleading statement regarding the dates it was written in a hurry I was on my way out

And I disagree on making his statement public if he ever made one, There was no reason why he should not have been called his so-called evidence was material to the murder and no reason for it not to be made public, It's not as if he witnessed that actual murder, or identified the perpetrator by name. and we see no other examples of material witnesses being withheld, and there is nothing anywhere to show he made a statement or why he was not called.

I notice you chose to ignore other reasons for his no-show in my previous post

As to hearsay any statement made by Schwartz unless exhibited or later found by researchers must be hearsay if the contents are later referred to, or an uncorroborated verbal account, if there ever was a statement or nothing more than a verbal account and Abberline referred to it in his memo then in my opinion its hearsay especially if there was ever a statement the original could have accompanied the memo or a draft prepared for submission.

Hearsay evidence is 'second-hand' evidence. It is: A statement. A statement covers any representation of fact or opinion made by a person by whatever means with the purpose of causing another person to believe a matter or to act on the basis that it is true

If Abberline had taken the statement from Schwartz then it would not be hearsay

Your explanations are nothing more than conjecture and lack corroboration. You and others should stick to the facts as known, far to many personal opinions on here in an attempt to change the original facts and evidence which contain "what if`s, "maybe`s". "I think" and many more.

All the facts and evidence in these murders have been discussed hundreds of times if not more over the last few decades, with very few new facts forthcoming that change or add to the original facts and evidence,

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Elamarna]

The attack continues, and still no one hears anything suspicious.

Mrs Diemschitz: I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave.

Schwartz's story is not credible.

Sorry we disagree.

That the wife heard nothing, in no way diminishes the Schwartz account.

Steve

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fanny Mortimer never said she went in just after 1am. You are making that up.

"It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

12:45am + 10 minutes + 4 minutes = 12:59am. Fanny Mortimer supported Diemshutz' timing.

"It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road."

Mortimer went out, not in after 1pm. This is in response to the commotion in Dutfield's Yard and again supports Diemshutz' timing.

If Fanny heard Smith passing her house between 12:40 and 12:45, and very soon after goes to her doorstep for about ten minutes, when do you suppose the Schwartz incident occurred? Did it occur before Smith sees Stride with a man, so around the time that Eagle returns to the club, or was it after Smith's passing by, so while Fanny was at her doorstep?

[c.d.]

Given the approx timing of the attack by BS man, and the impossibility of establishing an exact TOD, we are of course left with the possibility of a 2nd attacker. It would be remiss of Swanson not to allow for such.
However, the probability is that BS man was her killer.
People don't like.

Steve

Well I think there was more to it than simply the time aspect. I think Swanson was alluding to the possibility that Schwartz simply witnessed a little street hassle and not a prelude to a murder.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Sorry we disagree.

That the wife heard nothing, in no way diminishes the Schwartz account.

Steve

Presumably if she had said "I heard a woman screams three times, but not very loudly", you would not say that that bolsters Schwartz's account?