The Stride Murder

[FISHY1118]

I can see which ones you might mean. Druitt naturally because a) he wasn’t particularly broad shouldered, and b) you can never resist bringing him into any conversation, and c) for some reason you think that this is an opportunity for a dig at me.

We could also add Gull of course. Just to be fair.

Can you ? Well ill be dammed , now you can add 'Mind Reader'' to your impressive Repertoire ,with a sprinkling of ''Paranoia''? .

If Druitt didnt have broad shoulders well so be it , just as others who didnt have B.S might have been eliminated also, i wasnt having a dig at anyone least of all you , and to be fair yes gull would be eliminated as ''Strides'' killer if his description didnt match B.S . I hope that clears things up .

[Mark J D]

There is some evidence I think has been overlooked which seems to me to indicate a dragging of stride on the ground. There is mention of her hair being very matted with mud. I think this is mentioned during the inquest. I know it is important to reference sources but its early in the morning and I will look later. if she just fell to the ground would her hair be heavily 'matted' which I take as meaning 'caked' into the hair. just landing on the muddy floor surely wouldn't cause this. But perhaps a dragging of her either alive or dead would matt the hair with mud. It could be just a short distance maybe a couple of feet or perhaps longer. perhaps dragged into the gateway.

So the first thing the club members attempted was to move the body somewhere else...?

That being abandoned, they needed to time-shift the murder so that someone who hadn't been there could report a conveniently antisemitic attacker and a passer-by seen by no-one else, and then time-shift the arrival of the cart so no-one would think they'd originally thought of using it to relocate the body...?

Mark D.

[S.Brett]

What time did pubs close in Metroplitan London in the Fall of 1888? Where could someone buy a drink at 12:30 am on Berner Street? Youve all scrambled to find the reference I quoted, and youve used other quotes to say Pipeman was seen exiting a pub. Consider those 2 questions. Im not saying it isnt possible that the quote was incorrect, I can only say I found it attributed to that publication and those authors, but again, where on Berner Street at 12:30am in 1888 could someone buy a drink?

Hi Michael!

Edward Spooner mentioned the closing time. He and his young woman "stood outside the the Beehive" (the Bee Hive Public House) after the closing time. Pipeman was not the only person who was "standing outside" a Pub.

"Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public-house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public-house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove-street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate".

Karsten.

[Elamarna]

Hi Michael!

Edward Spooner mentioned the closing time. He and his young woman "stood outside the the Beehive" (the Bee Hive Public House) after the closing time. Pipeman was not the only person who was "standing outside" a Pub.

"Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public-house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public-house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove-street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate".

Karsten.

Good points Karsten.
That others left earlier of course is not evidence that all did.
The reports don't actually say he was seen exiting the pub, only that he came from the doorway.

The question of did he come from the pub or it's doorway is of course simply a distraction from the claim that Pipeman come from the club?

I repeat the only two reports We know of say he came from the doorway of the pub.

It is of course possible that he may have originally come from the club, at an earlier point, but there is no evidence of this, only speculation.

What is clear is there is NO REPORT , that is known of, that says Schwartz claimed Pipeman came from the club.

Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can you ? Well ill be dammed , now you can add 'Mind Reader'' to your impressive Repertoire ,with a sprinkling of ''Paranoia''? .

If Druitt didnt have broad shoulders well so be it , just as others who didnt have B.S might have been eliminated also, i wasnt having a dig at anyone least of all you , and to be fair yes gull would be eliminated as ''Strides'' killer if his description didnt match B.S . I hope that clears things up .

For ‘mind reader’ and ‘paranoia’ read ‘experience of numerous previous occasions.’

[S.Brett]

Good points Karsten.
That others left earlier of course is not evidence that all did.
The reports don't actually say he was seen exiting the pub, only that he came from the doorway.

The question of did he come from the pub or it's doorway is of course simply a distraction from the claim that Pipeman come from the club?

I repeat the only two reports We know of say he came from the doorway of the pub.

It is of course possible that he may have originally come from the club, at an earlier point, but there is no evidence of this, only speculation.

What is clear is there is NO REPORT , that is known of, that says Schwartz claimed Pipeman came from the club.

Steve

I´m a pipesmoker, Steven! As a "Pipeman":

On 30. September 1888 at 12.45am I would light my pipe indoor (thanks to the weather conditions)

If I walk through the streets I light (or re-light) my pipe on a safe place (see the weather), a doorway or under a roofing etc.

Of course, it is also possible, after exiting the Beer House, that Pipeman lighted his pipe. But there also is the possibility that Pipeman had the opportunity to go back into the Beer House, again (unless the Pub owner locked the door behind "Pipeman" a few minutes before -but probably closed at midnight-) but he didn´t. If he had closed the door shortly before the incident occured we see that he did not go back... he ran away... that would not make any sense, I guess.

I think "Pipeman" (like other people,too) did not want to go home after the pubs were closed and that he lighted his pipe at the entrance of the Nelson´s.

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

The following, I find it rather odd:

Schwartz, as a Jew, described the two men, BS Man and Pipeman, as "belong to the same grade of society"

Lawende said "sailor like"

Sagar, City Police stated: "a police-constable met a man of Jewish appearance hurrying out of the court" (Mitre Square murder)

These three descriptions came from sightings within an hour.

Sagar´s constable saw a Jew! I can´t see that Schwartz and Lawende did see the same. Both were Jewish men and a non- Jewish man, the constable, had seen a man of Jewish appearance.

It would make sense that the constable saw Anderson´ suspect.

If true the PC near Mitre Square "identified" the Anderson´ suspect some-time afterwards. If this suspect was found after the Double Event it is possible that he changed his appearance. This in turn would explain why the Seaside Home witness, as a Jew, did not see a man who looked like a Jew (he learned that he was a fellow-Jew, after the ID).

Anderson:

"I will only add that when the individual whom we suspected was caged in an asylum, the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer at once identified him; but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him".

One could think, assume, that the Seaside Home witness was a man who saw this suspect in the case of the Miller´s Court murder. And one can assume that the man/men (BS Man/ Pipeman, "Sailor") Schwartz/ Lawende described was/were not Anderson´ suspect.

This is from a press report:

"His description agreed with that of a man seen in Dorset-street, Whitechapel, on the night when Mary Jane Kelly was cut to pieces, and at that time he was very near to actual arrest by a policeman."

If Anderson´ suspect could be identified as a man of Jewish appearance, until around the 30. September 1888 but not after this date the witness must come from the Kelly murder. That means that Schwartz nor Lawende were at the Seaside Home.

Karsten.

[Lewis C]

Indeed I too find it odd people reject it.
We have 2 different reports.
The police report says she is pulled onto the street and the second man has a pipe.
The Star report say she's pushed towards the gateway, and the pipe becomes a knife.

The knife is probably just sensationalism by the Star.
The discrepancy over pulled or pushed is harder to understand and may be die to a translation issue.

The fact remains some people don't seem to be willing to even consider that BS man was her killer, suggesting a second man came along.
Others say that she was not a Ripper Victim, saying this was a domestic, for which I see no actual evidence.

Others simply reject the whole account, Schwartz lied.

To me, it seems some of these objection are out of a concern where it might lead if BS man is her killer, and it's not a domestic.

Steve

I believe Schwartz' story, but I can see a good reason why someone might not: the timeline is rather crowded, and something has to give to make it all fit. We're told that Mortimer went to her door immediately after she heard the heavy tramp of a policeman, which we believe was PC Smith, and yet neither she nor PC Smith saw Schwartz or BS man. The way that I resolve that is by interpreting "immediately" to mean "about 5 minutes later", and figuring that Schwartz and BS man arrived and departed during that 5 minutes, but I'm willing to grant that I'm interpreting "immediately" fairly broadly.

[Lewis C]

Care to name them?

If we were to eliminate suspects solely based on Schwartz' description of BS man, the first suspects that I would eliminate would be everyone over 50.

[Elamarna]

I believe Schwartz' story, but I can see a good reason why someone might not: the timeline is rather crowded, and something has to give to make it all fit. We're told that Mortimer went to her door immediately after she heard the heavy tramp of a policeman, which we believe was PC Smith, and yet neither she nor PC Smith saw Schwartz or BS man. The way that I resolve that is by interpreting "immediately" to mean "about 5 minutes later", and figuring that Schwartz and BS man arrived and departed during that 5 minutes, but I'm willing to grant that I'm interpreting "immediately" fairly broadly.

Or the footsteps were not those of Smith.
Or she simply had her timinging a few minutes out.
Or Schwartz had his timing out.

The possibilities are many.

Steve

[Lewis C]

Or the footsteps were not those of Smith.
Or she simply had her timinging a few minutes out.
Or Schwartz had his timing out.

The possibilities are many.

Steve

I think "she had her timing a few minutes out" is basically what I said. If Schwartz had his timing off, do you mean he saw Stride before Smith saw her, or that he saw her after Mortimer went back inside?

[Elamarna]

I think "she had her timing a few minutes out" is basically what I said. If Schwartz had his timing off, do you mean he saw Stride before Smith saw her, or that he saw her after Mortimer went back inside?

I mean that any of them.could be out with their timings.
My work on timing continues, but there is a podcast on this site of a talk I have may 2022 on the subject.

[Lewis C]

I mean that any of them.could be out with their timings.
My work on timing continues, but there is a podcast on this site of a talk I have may 2022 on the subject.

I understand that no time that anyone gives should be treated as exactly right. All of them are estimates. What I asked about wasn't exactly timing, it's more what order things are likely to have happened in.

[Elamarna]

I understand that no time that anyone gives should be treated as exactly right. All of them are estimates. What I asked about wasn't exactly timing, it's more what order things are likely to have happened in.

Ok, with you now, sorry.

Here is my probably order.

Smith walk his beat,
Eagle and others pass through the yard and see nothing.
BS man walks ahead of Schwartz down Berner Street.
The attack occurrs.

Only then does Mortimer appear.
Either her gap between hearing the police man pass is longer than she suggests, or it's not a policeman she hears
( the alternative is she goes out initial much early, but is not constantly at her door, but goes back to the door, after events have occurred.

I prefer the former,,but can live with the latter

She sees Goldstein.

She goes back inside.

Diemsutch arrives.

Hope that's better

Steve

[Lewis C]

OK, yes, now we're together. That she may have been mistaken about hearing a policeman is something that I hadn't really considered before. I'm glad you mentioned it, because I now think that's as good a possibility as any. Thanks, Steve.