Can't get past Maxwell

[etenguy]

Where does it say a velvet garment was found in MJK's room? Abberline did an inventory but the list does not exist.

I have never seen a full inventory but there was reference to a burnt velvet jacket and bonnet being found in the grate in one of the newspaper reports.

According to Maxwell MJK said she was drinking at Ringers before meeting Maxwell at around 8 am..Bars ,especially near the market open early,they could open by law at 5 am,if I remember right,early.
It did not really say she was drunk from last night and continuously that morning.

In the newspaper reports, Maxwell talks about MJK having 'the horrors of drink upon her' and Maxwell tells her to go for a drink to cure it which is when MJK replies she had just done that but it caused her to vomit.

[Varqm]

'One thing I noticed, and that was that he walked very softly'. Daily News 14th Nov.



Taken from the MJK timeline on the victim page on here - not sure where it comes from originally though.

Ok.Night and early morning are the same.
Maroon and red too.
Quietly and softly/gently too.

[Aethelwulf]

Ok.Did Aman walk quietly?

'One thing I noticed, and that was that he walked very softly'. Daily News 14th Nov.

Who said she was in Britannia at 11 pm, we do not know where she and Blotchy met and Cox sighting was at 11:45 pm.

Taken from the MJK timeline on the victim page on here - not sure where it comes from originally though.

[Varqm]

each to their own but you are never going to convince me that Kelly-Aman isn't night time, and therefore the man referred to is most likely (not definitely) AMan.

Could this also be Aman testing the waters:

11:00 PM: It is said she is in the Britannia drinking with a young man with a dark mustache who appears respectable and well dressed. It is said she is very drunk.

Ok.Did Aman walk quietly?

Who said she was in Britannia at 11 pm, we do not know where she and Blotchy met and Cox sighting was at 11:45 pm.

[Varqm]

Thanks for clarifying re the jurisdiction

But surely there must have been many policemen available for Hutch to speak to just after the murder. Also it's a risky lie to make. He must have known he could have been readily found out by the police. And of course, he was believed by a very able policeman and experienced detective, namely Abberline.

I believe in Hutch 100% myself.

Out of interest, what's your take on Hutch?

Hutch has nothing to do with the case.

[Aethelwulf]

I think night referred to the 11:45 pm sighting of Cox.

each to their own but you are never going to convince me that Kelly-Aman isn't night time, and therefore the man referred to is most likely (not definitely) AMan.

Could this also be Aman testing the waters:

11:00 PM: It is said she is in the Britannia drinking with a young man with a dark mustache who appears respectable and well dressed. It is said she is very drunk.

[mpriestnall]

"A Man" resembled Randolph Churchill who owned the house next door to Gull at Brook Street.

Brook Street was one of many of Randy's properties.

From Trevor Marriot's "Jack The Ripper - The Secret Police Files".

..."This was a named entry under the name R. Churchill and the entry read, “Perpetrator of The Whitechapel Murders”. It was suggested to me that this entry could relate to Randolph Churchill the father of Sir Winston Churchill."

In Melvyn Fairclough's book "The Ripper and the Royals", page 246, Reginald Hutchinson reports his father George as saying "It was someone like Lord Randolph Churchill."

Was GWTH just saying AMan had a passing resemblance to Lord R.C?

My own research says he did...

[mpriestnall]

Because some in the jury believe they should not be in the inquest because Baxter should have been the Coroner or they were under Baxter's district.
But it's where the body lied,Shoreditch was under Macdonald.And the Coroner can pick jurors from another district if needed be by law,12-23 of them.

That's another thing against Hutch they could not find the policeman.Who was the policeman on the beat at 2-3 am? I doubt there was one.There was no beat police in Dorset St and Hanbury street at least on the early morning of the murders,also Flower and Dean and probly Thrawl too.There was a fixed point near the market though but on the Lamb/Hanbury sts,per Davies in Chapman"s case.

Thanks for clarifying re the jurisdiction

But surely there must have been many policemen available for Hutch to speak to just after the murder. Also it's a risky lie to make. He must have known he could have been readily found out by the police. And of course, he was believed by a very able policeman and experienced detective, namely Abberline.

I believe in Hutch 100% myself.

Out of interest, what's your take on Hutch?

[mpriestnall]

"Lechmere's" research showed an unexplained young boy at sailorman Hutchinson's address.

Followed that up.His parents resided at Primrose Street.

Jack the Ripper's sexual orientation was the reason for the murders.

Mary Ann Kelly was a victim circa 1866.Vestry Medical Officer/RLS' novella.8 yo girl trampled.

Ok thanks.

So Primrose street was pretty close to Dorset Street, which is interesting.

[Varqm]

Not so different depending on shade of maroon - some look red especially at night. Also both said she was not wearing a hat. a velvet garment was found in MJK's room, part of the burnt clothes. I think adding all this together, it would be an unusually happy coincidence for all these things to tie up.



Exactly - Cox said MJK was three sheets to the wind the night before the murder. Maxwell said that MJK told her she had been drinking heavily Thursday night and had gone out for the hair of the dog Friday morning. This all ties up.

Where does it say a velvet garment was found in MJK's room? Abberline did an inventory but the list does not exist.

According to Maxwell MJK said she was drinking at Ringers before meeting Maxwell at around 8 am..Bars ,especially near the market open early,they could open by law at 5 am,if I remember right,early.
It did not really say she was drunk from last night and continuously that morning.

[Varqm]

The case for for the jurisdiction has been discussed many times by more knowledgeable case students than me. It's ironic, at least, that
Macdonald himself claimed jurisdiction due to where body lay and so it could be said he was arguing against himself!!!???

Hutch claimed to have spoke to a policemen and presumably subsequently ignored. Maybe the higher up police didn't want Hutch to appear at the inquest so that AM's identity wouldn't be placed on record and subsequently publicized.

I don't believe the Barnett supplied backstory for MJK and that I believe she was born in London and died outside the capital. Therefore I don't see a problem with Lewis claiming he knew MJK for 5 years.

Because some in the jury believe they should not be in the inquest because Baxter should have been the Coroner or they were under Baxter's district.
But it's where the body lied,Shoreditch was under Macdonald.And the Coroner can pick jurors from another district if needed be by law,12-23 of them.

That's another thing against Hutch they could not find the policeman.Who was the policeman on the beat at 2-3 am? I doubt there was one.There was no beat police in Dorset St and Hanbury street at least on the early morning of the murders,also Flower and Dean and probly Thrawl too.There was a fixed point near the market though but on the Lamb/Hanbury sts,per Davies in Chapman"s case.

[Varqm]

hi varq
i believe its the red pelerine and maroon shawl that are the same no?

I believe not,clearly different color but could be close. But as Kelly did not have an extensive wardrobe how do we know she was wearing it often and therefore many people knew it? I believe Maxwell did knew Kelly but as she said only talked to her 2x.

[DJA]

"A Man" resembled Randolph Churchill who owned the house next door to Gull at Brook Street.

Brook Street was one of many of Randy's properties.

[DJA]

"Lechmere's" research showed an unexplained young boy at sailorman Hutchinson's address.

Followed that up.His parents resided at Primrose Street.

Jack the Ripper's sexual orientation was the reason for the murders.

Mary Ann Kelly was a victim circa 1866.Vestry Medical Officer/RLS' novella.8 yo girl trampled.

[mpriestnall]

Three years.

Topping was not George Hutchinson.Hutch was a sailor.

Hi DJA, You maybe right, but I have some weak indirect evidence supporting GWTH being the right Hutch. It's not a big deal. Just an idea that
occurred to me.

I remember "Lechmere" posting some Census data plus Electoral Register data re GWTH sometime ago. I'll try and find that to see what I can see.

And thanks for the "3 years".

Martyn