John Richardson

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

This timeline of yours got me thinking rather unsavoury thoughts!

Was Cadosche ever asked to give an estimate of how long he was in the loo?

I can see that at the inquest he simply gave the time he got up and went to the yard, then the four minutes spent inside before returning to the loo.

Could he have been in that loo far longer than we are estimating?

I've worked with a few blokes over the years who would disappear every day for unfathomable periods of time.

Granted, Cadosche obviously wasn't checking the BBC Sport app on his mobile or reading The Sun, but I have frequently observed that (without wishing to go into detail or theorise about what they're doing in there) bloke's toilet habits are pretty weird.

Hi Ms D,

Its a very fair point. How can we know how long he was in there? He’d recently been in hospital after all. If he’d gone into the yard at just 5.24 for example instead of his estimate of 5.20 and he’d been in there for 3 or 4 minutes he could have heard the ‘no’ at 5.27 or 5.28.

Look at the times given by the witnesses in my earlier post. They’re all estimations and most disagree with each other. Do we doubt them? Do we dismiss them? Or do we just accept a reasonable margin for error? So why shouldn’t we allow the same for Long and Cadosch. I think we all know what the reasonable approach has to be.

[Trevor Marriott]

But what is DEFINITELY fanciful is your absolutely ludicrous piece of manipulation in trying to claim that after Long past the couple it took them 4 or 5 minutes to walk the very few yards to number 29. They weren’t on the moon So if Long past them at 5.30 they could have been in that yard at 5.31 (or I might still have been 5.30.)

This is the same scenario as Eddowes there is no record of what time this couple or Eddowes and her killer left the location where they were last seen so you cannot speculate and there is no conclusive proof that the couple Long saw was Chapman!

So Trevor, can you assure us all that the clock that Mrs Long heard couldn’t have been 5 minutes out? Are you really going to make that ludicrous claim

But it could have been 5 mins out making it 5.35am in real time or 5.25am in real time in which case it casts a doubt about Cadoshe

We simply do not know the exact times as stated by the witnesses so we have to look at all possibilities regarding these times stated not accept them without question as you seem to want to do

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fleetwood Mac]

Mrs. Elizabeth Long:

I did not see the man's face, but I noticed that he was dark.

He looked like a foreigner.

On what basis would Long conclude: "he looked like a foreigner"?

When Long stated: that is why I did not take much notice of them, why would she take any notice of them given she had no idea a murder was about to take place?

[Herlock Sholmes]

But it could have been 5 mins out making it 5.35am in real time or 5.25am in real time in which case it casts a doubt about Cadoshe

We simply do not know the exact times as stated by the witnesses so we have to look at all possibilities regarding these times stated not accept them without question as you seem to want to do

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I’m the one saying that we have to allow for a reasonable margin for error. Either way, fast, or slow, more or less. All fine.

Cadosch and Long are both easily within a very reasonable margin for error. There is no issue on timing with those two.

So you have a coincidence to explain away. That Elizabeth Long saw a woman who looked just like Annie Chapman talking to a man just outside the location where Annie Chapman was killed by a man and at just the right time. And this sighting ties up just right with Cadosch hearing a ‘No’ and a ‘noise’ from a garden where some people still believe that there was a mutilated corpse lying.

Its a no contest. Witnesses over Phillips inaccurate guess by a country mile. Not even remotely close.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mrs. Elizabeth Long:

I did not see the man's face, but I noticed that he was dark.

He looked like a foreigner.

On what basis would Long conclude: "he looked like a foreigner"?

When Long stated: that is why I did not take much notice of them, why would she take any notice of them given she had no idea a murder was about to take place?

Desperate even by your standards.

---

[Abby Normal]

I’m the one saying that we have to allow for a reasonable margin for error. Either way, fast, or slow, more or less. All fine.

Cadosch and Long are both easily within a very reasonable margin for error. There is no issue on timing with those two.

So you have a coincidence to explain away. That Elizabeth Long saw a woman who looked just like Annie Chapman talking to a man just outside the location where Annie Chapman was killed by a man and at just the right time. And this sighting ties up just right with Cadosch hearing a ‘No’ and a ‘noise’ from a garden where some people still believe that there was a mutilated corpse lying.

Its a no contest. Witnesses over Phillips inaccurate guess by a country mile. Not even remotely close.

bingo herlock
and if chapmans corpse was lying there already when cadosh heard the noises, where is that witness/witnesses? did they miss the body lying at there feet like richardson too? lol

[etenguy]

But it could have been 5 mins out making it 5.35am in real time or 5.25am in real time in which case it casts a doubt about Cadoshe

We simply do not know the exact times as stated by the witnesses so we have to look at all possibilities regarding these times stated not accept them without question as you seem to want to do

Just on the Cadosch timings, the following quote may be useful.

When he [Cadosch] left the house, he noted that the clock of Christ Church read 5.32am. He did not see any man and woman together outside, nor did he see Mrs Elizabeth Long.

I think Cadosch the more reliable and suspect Long wrongly estimated her timings.

[Herlock Sholmes]

bingo herlock
and if chapmans corpse was lying there already when cadosh heard the noises, where is that witness/witnesses? did they miss the body lying at there feet like richardson too? lol

Hey Abby,

For the sake of 5 or 6 minutes margin for error for Cadosch and Long their timings tie up perfectly.

And as Ms D said (something that hasn’t been taken into consideration) how long was Cadosch in the outside toilet. He doesn’t give a duration. For all that we know he could have been in there for 5 minutes or more. After all, he’d recently been in hospital explaining why he needed the loo again so soon after.

So the more that I think about it we might not even need to suggest that Long’s clock was out. If she’d seen Annie and her killer at 5.30 then they would easily have been in the yard by 5.31. So if Cadosch was 5 minutes later than he estimated and went into the yard at 5.25 instead of 5.20 and was in the loo for 6 minutes then he’d have emerged at just the right time to hear the ‘no’.

So either Long and Cadosch both ‘out’ by 5 or 6 minutes. Or even just Cadosch out by 5 minutes.

Three witnesses all pointing to a later TOD vs a Doctors inaccurate guess. So I’d ask again, what are the chances of Elizabeth Long seeing a woman who was the spitting image of Annie Chapman, with a man, just outside the location where Annie Chapman was killed (by a man) at just the time that another person hears sounds coming from the very same yard where the woman was murdered and at a time when, according to our miracle worker Phillips, there was a dead body already lying there? Not a lot of competition really Abby?

[Herlock Sholmes]

When he [Cadosch] left the house, he noted that the clock of Christ Church read 5.32am. He did not see any man and woman together outside, nor did he see Mrs Elizabeth Long.

And Mrs Long fixed her time by the Brewer’s Clock which could have been fast by 5 minutes or so.

[Dickere]

You need to read the posts more thoroughly before you rush to reply, this is what I originally posted no mention of Mrs Long being 15 mins out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I disagree with you and Jeff on this issue. Mrs Long`s time can be verified by the clock she heard striking that was 5.30am and the couple were static so with that in mind by my calculations if they were Chapman and the killer the earliest they could have made it into the back yard would have been 5.35am.

Cadosch stated he was in the yard at 5.20am you cant tell me that the clocks were that much out of sync with each other

You are simply using the the excuse that the clocks were wrong to prop up the witness testimony to suit, they may have been not in sync but not 15 mins out !!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

A single exclamation mark should suffice, any more than three suggests someone is demented.

[paul g]

Has anyone any estimate how long from the start of the mutilation to the end it would of taken Jack to finish.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was thinking about clocks being out and recalled reading something about this. I just checked it out and it was in The Islington Murder Mystery by David Barrat. It’s on page 264 if anyone else has it:

"the prosecution obtained evidence about the clock at the Three Brewers which, although it was accurate and checked every Thursday, nevertheless tended to add a minute or two every week"

This came from a witness statement amongst the prosecution's papers.

Now let's assume this is quite typical of clocks in the Victorian/Edwardian period. If a clock adds 2 minutes a week but is not checked every week, in a mere three weeks it will be 6 minutes fast.

In two months it will be 16 minutes out.

If there are two clocks, and one adds 2 minutes a week while the other loses two minutes a week, there will be a 15 minute difference between them within a month!

So, one can see how easy it would be for big discrepancies.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Has anyone any estimate how long from the start of the mutilation to the end it would of taken Jack to finish.

Phillips said that he couldn’t have done it in under 15 minutes John but I can’t tell you offhand of any other opinion. I seem to vaguely recall other opinions on the subject but I’m unsure. Someone on here will know if other medical opinions have been given.

[Admin]

The whole reason I even came back from the dead..was for this thread.

John Richardson was Jack Richardson.

If this is the whole reason you came back from the dead then I suggest strongly that you return to the topic, or return to the abyss, unless you'd like an assist with the latter. You've become quite the combative little nug since your return, and it's not as adorable as you think. You've done nothing for the last several posts but piss on other posters. Find a relative point, or piss off.

And have a lovely day.

[DJA]

Used to gut and hang a kangaroo at night time in the bush. Around 15 minutes. Bit longer if still alive and trying to gut me.