John Richardson

[Fleetwood Mac]

You’ve lost badly on every single point

I know, you're at war, Sherlock.

Never mind all of that, we've found something that hasn't been smashed to bits a zillion times.

That being Catherine's body in comparison with Annie's.

So, crack on with your reply on that particular issue.

[etenguy]

With FM flogging the ghost of a position that was killed long, long ago.

Hi Herlock

There were times I thought you and FM were close to agreeing but I think that ship has sailed. I personally read the qualification made by Dr Philips in the same way you do and struggle to interpret it the way FM and a few other posters do. But I don't think there is anything I can add that will make a difference to your central disagreement with FM on this point.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, at least we're onto something different.

They were women resorting to desperate measures in order to keep a roof over their heads. Neither woman would have been in particularly good shape.

What do you mean when you say: "atmospheric conditions"?

Atmospheric conditions are one factor which will affect the rate of cooling. Temperature, wind chill, wind speed, etc.

And, the argument in relation to Annie went something like: "the huge amount of blood loss impacting body temperature". Upon Catherine being mentioned, this argument has, unsurprisingly, disappeared.

Dr Phillips certainly mentioned that the body "would be apt to cool rapidly from having lost the greater portion of its blood" as one reason why he might have miscalculated the TOD. But it may surprise you to know that you are not speaking to Dr Phillips right now.

Just focus on the differences that I am stating, which explain why what you are doing is a daft apples to pears comparison.

What do you mean when you say: "did they have the same body?" What is the relevance?

The relevance is that different bodies react in different ways after death, but this can't be predicted in advance.

It's like how a very small number of people can die after a taking a vaccine. But that doesn't happen to everyone, even if they are similar people. Do you really not understand this?

So you can't just say that because Chapman and Eddowes were similar middle aged woman who were murdered and mutilated that therefore their bodies will have both reacted exactly in the same way after death, with identical cooling and rigor etc.

This is basically Science for Dummies and I shouldn't need to be explaining this to you. You obviously think you know forensic pathology better than Dr Biggs and have spotted something he's missed. Please don't make me laugh.

In the end we have two women, both fallen on hard times, with a great amount of blood loss, in a similar environmental temperature, murdered in a similar manner. One of those was cold except for some warmth under the intestines and rigor had commenced of the limbs; the other poor woman's body was quite warm and there was no sign of rigor. According to your argument these women had a PMI variance of 20 minutes. Can you explain that? I mean reasonably.

I've already done it. Your argument is predicated on a false assumption that the bodies of two "similar" people killed in a "similar" manner will react in the same way. It's just not correct. That's the explanation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I know, you're at war, Sherlock.

Never mind all of that, we've found something that hasn't been smashed to bits a zillion times.

That being Catherine's body in comparison with Annie's.

So, crack on with your reply on that particular issue.

You are comparing an apple with a pear.

It's not scientifically sound what you are saying. It's all based on ignorance.

That's the reply. Deal with it.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms Diddles

You are brave to venture into this thread at this point, a little like approaching the gothic mansion in a thunderstorm at the start of all classic horror movies, but a good point well made.

Hahaha!

Nice analogy, Eten!

I'm picturing it more as me, sitting quietly at the bar nursing a g&t, looking on sardonically as furniture is flung all around, pool cues are getting broken over people's heads and the jukebox is blaring out Ace of Spades.....

[DJA]

Hayseed Dixie - Ace of Spades - YouTube

[Fleetwood Mac]

You are comparing an apple with a pear.

It's not scientifically sound what you are saying. It's all based on ignorance.

That's the reply. Deal with it.

Well, I suppose I'm just gonna have to deal with it, Sherlock. The good and the bad!

You've made a big announcement here, am I going to be startled with earth shattering news? The last time you claimed earth shattering news, you said something like: "a timeframe of 4 hours is more likely to accurate than a timeframe of 3 hours. Let me tell you, what a let-down that was.

I'll take a look at your reply on Catherine/Annie and get back to you.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Atmospheric conditions are one factor which will affect the rate of cooling. Temperature, wind chill, wind speed, etc.

Ah yes, Sherlock's scientific analysis: "wind speed" is what we need to know. It ain't the 100 metres, mate!

The environmental temperature was very similar on the morning of Catherine's and Annie's murder.

'Interesting that you were claiming 'rigor can appear within half an hour'. Well, it didn't happen in Catherine's case.

Does this mean the outlier medical example is now redundant?

One point at a time and then we can move on to the next one.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, I suppose I'm just gonna have to deal with it, Sherlock. The good and the bad!

You've made a big announcement here, am I going to be startled with earth shattering news? The last time you claimed earth shattering news, you said something like: "a timeframe of 4 hours is more likely to accurate than a timeframe of 3 hours. Let me tell you, what a let-down that was.

I'll take a look at your reply on Catherine/Annie and get back to you.

Er....that was you, mate. Have you already forgotten what you kept on posting only a few hours ago, based on a misunderstanding of Biggs, e.g.

"a wider timeframe should prove more accurate" #2839

"a wider timeframe is more likely to be accurate." #2911

"a wider timeframe is more likely to be accurate". #2928

It was you who was then forced to admit, on your own logic, that a 2.30 to 5.30 timeframe was more likely to be accurate than a 2.30 to 4.30 timeframe.

Talk about hoist on your own petard!

[Fleetwood Mac]

It was you who was then forced to admit, on your own logic, that a 2.30 to 5.30 timeframe was more likely to be accurate than a 2.30 to 4.30 timeframe.

I honestly do not know what to say, Sherlock.

Apart from, you say this like it is some earth-shattering revelation!

Anyway, you have a post on Catherine waiting.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah yes, Sherlock's scientific analysis: "wind speed" is what we need to know. It ain't the 100 metres, mate!

The environmental temperature was very similar on the morning of Catherine's and Annie's murder.

But similar is not identical so your argument fails right there.

'Interesting that you were claiming 'rigor can appear within half an hour'. Well, it didn't happen in Catherine's case.

You understand what the word "can" mean right? It's different to "will".

With Catherine, Dr Brown noted warmth and no stiffening and said "She must have been dead likely within the half an hour". That's different from Annie's potential one hour PMI. It's not the same. Comprende?

It doesn't matter how much you try to bend time and space. Forty minutes will never ever be the same as sixty.

Catherine Eddowes was a different person to Annie Chapman with a different body. You cannot do the comparison that you are trying to do. It's scientifically illegitimate and doesn't work.

Does this mean the outlier medical example is now redundant?

One point at a time and then we can move on to the next one.

Keep digging.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The environmental temperature was very similar on the morning of Catherine's and Annie's murder.

But similar is not identical so your argument fails right there.

Comprende?

Why?

Why does the environmental temperature have to be identical in order to draw a meaningful comparison? We're talking of approx. 1C difference. Can you explain this. Both temperatures would delay the onset of rigor, which is the crux of the point being made.

Why is there a Spanish word in your post?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I honestly do not know what to say, Sherlock.

Apart from, you say this like it is some earth-shattering revelation!

Anyway, you have a post on Catherine waiting.

There's nothing more to post. They were different women with different bodies and different ailments murdered in different circumstances and examined at different times after death.

It couldn’t be more obvious.

[Fleetwood Mac]

"She must have been dead likely within the half an hour".

A point of order, Dr Brown stated:

The crime must have been committed within half an hour, or certainly within forty minutes from the time when I saw the body.

He arrived at 2.20. Catherine's body was found at 1.45.

'Seems that a PMI of 40 minutes is the reasonable interpretation. 20 minutes less than the case of Annie.

[Herlock Sholmes]

'Interesting that you were claiming 'rigor can appear within half an hour'. Well, it didn't happen in Catherine's case.

Heart attacks. Some people die of them, some don’t.

Allergies. Some people will die when they eat nuts, others will be fine.

Smoking. Some people smoke like chimneys and never develop cancer. Others do.

Drinking. Some people get drunk after a mere glass or two, others can don't.

Eating. Some people put on weight easily, some don't.

Conception. Some women get pregnant when having unprotected sex, some don't.

This could go on forever....