Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, do you think a man chosen to cover a murderer would have come with a ludicrous reason, and not a single English word ?
With a story possibly involving two men, when the Whitechapel murderer was generally believed to be a lone killer ?

Cheers

A good question David, and No,...because I dont believe the story as it is told is entirely Schwartz's creation. I believe the fact that he had been at the market that afternoon allowed him to state that he was returning from it...since we know that Louis is coming home around 1am, after the markets had closed. I believe the remark that he makes concerning his reason for being specifically at that spot is a contrived one....designed to conceal the fact that he actually attended the meeting that night, instead of tending to his wife and the move earlier that evening. I believe that the story of the altercation and the 2 men is told to enable the Club to provide the club with an alibi, essentially absolving itself of any possible improprieties in this matter. The story concludes at a time when by Blackwells estimates Liz Stride may have received her cut,... making the Broadshouldered Gentile, (another fabrication designed to deflect the general animosity towards the Jews over the perception at that time that an Immigrant Jews was Jack the Ripper), the most probable murderer.

Its possible,.... since Wess translated for Goldstein when he made his statement, and since its been alleged that Wess and Schwartz were at least acquaintances in the not so distant past, that Wess approached Schwartz with a request to help out himself personally, or for the club,...by giving what amounts to be a misdirection story to the Police. His lack of English actually gives him some wiggle room here..because it would always be possible that Wess's version of the translated story was inaccurate due to a mistranslation.

Its possible that Wess may have "mistranslated" on purpose...for self serving reasons.

So...instead of Schwartz telling the Police what may have actually transpired...that when he went to leave the club via the kitchen door at round 12:45, he entered the passageway and he saw a thug type man who was at the club that night accosting a woman just inside the gates...perhaps even killing her at that moment....he then scuffled past them and out the gates and probably did run "incontinently" home from there..........he proffers the story when "translated" that places the altercation off the premises, with a Gentile...who by virtue of the timing is almost certainly her killer.

He has nothing to fear from the real killer...because the story is false and no-one is looking at any of the club attendees for very long. Even... perhaps, a thug that was hired by the club to keep order in case the rumored violence was to happen that night...despite the late cancellation of Morris as the speaker.

Cheers David

[DRoy]

Dave,

That's possible. However we wouldn't know who the source for the story was. It could have been a neighbor of Mortimer's and not Mortimer herself. Since she isn't quited in the first story we can assume it wasn't from Mortimer herself. Therefore it would be less valuable.

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Dave,
With all do respect to him, you and Mr. Begg, I have a tough time believing the journalists little summary that isn't quoted over those versions of her story that are quoted.
Cheers
DRoy

Hi Roy

that shouldn't be so tough a time.
Embellishments are more likely to appear in the 2nd edition than in the first.
I'm sure SPE would agree on this.

Cheers

[Observer]

Observer,



I believe Stride went in the yard, whether it was with Parcel or someone else I can't say.

Nobody could see in the yard. There could have been Stride, BS Man, Pipeman, Lave, Eagle, & Goldstein in the yard and they wouldn't have seen each other. Lave had to feel along the wall to even know where he was.

Cheers
DRoy

Afraid not D. Thats not possible. Lets put this to bed. Not one of the witnesses seem able to compute the passage of time accurately during the crucial period leading up to the death of Liz Stride. I believe all spoke truthfully, the thing is they were out in therir timings. It's entirely feasible that Schwartz witnessed an assualt upon Liz Stride, were talking mere minutes from commencment to end regarding this assualt. It's entirely feasible that no one witnessed this assault bar Schwartz, and Pipeman.

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

So Mortimer just misses seeing PC Smith, and Stride and Parcel Man go into Dutfields Yard immediately after Smith passes. Why did Eagle or Lave did not see Stride and the man with the parcel in the yard?

I believe Stride went in the yard, whether it was with Parcel or someone else I can't say.

Nobody could see in the yard. There could have been Stride, BS Man, Pipeman, Lave, Eagle, & Goldstein in the yard and they wouldn't have seen each other. Lave had to feel along the wall to even know where he was.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Observer,

Makes sense doesn't it since nobody else saw or heard it.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi D

So Mortimer just misses seeing PC Smith, and Stride and Parcel Man go into Dutfields Yard immediately after Smith passes. Why did Eagle or Lave did not see Stride and the man with the parcel in the yard?

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Roy,

since I believe in the "10 minutes watch" referred to by the EN first edition (and btw accepted by Paul Begg), and since Goldstein hurried with his nightmarish black bag shortly before 1 o'clock, I have no problem either to put Mrs Mortimer outside just after BSM had murdered Liz Stride (thanks to who-you-know who pm both of us).

Dave,

Yes I responded to 'you-know-who' already. With all do respect to him, you and Mr. Begg, I have a tough time believing the journalists little summary that isn't quoted over those versions of her story that are quoted. I believe SPE is of the same opinion.

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Michael, do you think a man chosen to cover a murderer would have come with a ludicrous reason, and not a single English word ?
With a story possibly involving two men, when the Whitechapel murderer was generally believed to be a lone killer ?

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Schwartz was hungarian, not ludicrous.
As for Mrs Mortimer, hey, she didn't see anyone except Goldstein.
Conclusion ?

Cheers mon cher

To your first line......but the intention was that you readdress what he says is his reason for being outside the club at that time....a story which is ludicrous.. from whatever nationality.

And to the second point, I believe Fanny provides us with a view of the front of the gates for that last 10 minutes, and all that happened during that time was that Goldstein passed by. Which of course would mean that BSM took Liz off the street to the place where she would die immediately after the alleged assault..before Fanny was at her door continuously, and that he cut her sometime between 12:46 and 12:56 in that passageway....leaving at least some 4 minutes until the time Louis says he arrives. And giving the killer an opportunity from 12:46 on to kill and then cut her up...before 1am. It would also mean the killer didnt leave via the gates after the cut. It would also mean that Goldstein passed by as Liz was either being cut or had just been cut..and he saw no-one when he glanced into the passageway at the club.

Of course Leon, ....like Louis, and Morris, and Joseph, and Wolff, ...were all club members....and Israel, an Immigrant Jew just like most of the meeting attendees inside, had nothing to do with the club or its meeting that night....he was just there to check if his wife had moved their belongings from some undisclosed address on Berner Street to their new accommodations over the preceding 12 hours since he left her to pack and move alone. A move that likely consisted of clothes.

How long would it take anyone to move a few suitcases, and if it was a job bigger than that, what kind of man lets his wife do all the heavy lifting and then shows up at 1am to see if he can help?

L-u-d-i-c-r-o-u-s.

Cheers David

[DVV]

Hi Michael,

Schwartz was hungarian, not ludicrous.
As for Mrs Mortimer, hey, she didn't see anyone except Goldstein.
Conclusion ?

Cheers mon cher

[Michael W Richards]

Hi DRoy

Precisely : it's particularly difficult to estimate how long you have stayed here or there without watch.(Got this from Einstein.)
She said she was outside 10 minutes (estimation), she said she was home for 4 minutes when she heard the pony (estimation again).
I simply tend to believe she stayed outside less than 10 minutes, but spent time home ("preparing for bed") more than 4 minutes.

Cheers

I would imagine David that your use of the phrase "tend to believe" should really have been phrased "choose to believe", because as we both know Fanny Mortimer made her statement specific with respect to that last 10 minutes before 1am. She also stated that she had been at her door "off and on" since 12:30, so in that instance I expect you "choose" to believe she happened to be indoors when Israels supposed event occurs?

It seems to me that based on her statement and what has been established as a fact... that she did see Goldstein pass by the gates at around 12:56, that she likely was doing what she said she was.

Its funny how many people assume all the witnesses that dont see something a single witness says occurred are incorrect with their times, and the single witness who provides a tale without any substantiation is correct.

Despite his ludicrous story for being there in the first place.

Cheers David

[DVV]

Roy,

since I believe in the "10 minutes watch" referred to by the EN first edition (and btw accepted by Paul Begg), and since Goldstein hurried with his nightmarish black bag shortly before 1 o'clock, I have no problem either to put Mrs Mortimer outside just after BSM had murdered Liz Stride (thanks to who-you-know who pm both of us).

Cheers

[DRoy]

Mortimer saw Goldstein, and Goldstein only.
Conclusion : she's a relevant witness for a while, only a while, shortly before Goldstein passed by until some minutes before Diemshutz' arrival.
Hence the 10 minutes in the first edition of the Evening News.

Cheers all

Dave,

You almost had it. Irrelevant the same way Schwartz was that she didn't see the murder take place. But...yet also relevant to say Schwartz's event either didn't happen at all or that there was something wrong that also made Schwartz not worthy of testifying.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Observer,

Makes sense doesn't it since nobody else saw or heard it.

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Mortimer saw Goldstein, and Goldstein only.
Conclusion : she's a relevant witness for a while, only a while, shortly before Goldstein passed by until some minutes before Diemshutz' arrival.
Hence the 10 minutes in the first edition of the Evening News.

Cheers all