Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Cogidubnus]

But Mortimer said she heard Louis' cart arriving after she had gone back inside her house and was prepparing for bed. Your theory could still work but I don't think Louis could have been part of it. In the alternative, Mortimer was mistaken/lying about hearing Louis arrive.

Hi Roy

No I don't think so...

If I told you she heard not Diemschutz but William Bury's cart departing, it'd amount to the same thing...

She was up in her bedroom, curtains pulled, undressing, and she heard someone dragging something down the road and bashing together two coconut shells a la Python page ...that'd amount to (almost) the same thing!

Please let's not add two and two to produce five...

She heard what?

All the best

Dave

[DRoy]

Michael,

But Mortimer said she heard Louis' cart arriving after she had gone back inside her house and was prepparing for bed. Your theory could still work but I don't think Louis could have been part of it. In the alternative, Mortimer was mistaken/lying about hearing Louis arrive.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Question relating to my last post.......has anyone ever read or heard where specifically on Berner Street Israel Schwartz moved from? Does he appear in any census records up to 1888 residing anywhere on Berner Street?

Would the cottages within the passageway opposite the club be subjected to Census taking? Did 40 Berner Street have any recorded tenants? Cause we know people lived in them at that moment in time.

Cheers again

[Michael W Richards]

Mike,

I know your theory and in my opinion it is not unreasonable though it seems most think otherwise. I may not agree or accept it at this time but some of it does happen to coincide with my theory on Mortimer & Schwartz.

In regards to Isaac & Louis, it could be argued for the millionth time people's times were estimated and probably not that accurate. Isaac couldn't have gone looking for a policeman at 12:30 as surely it should not have taken 30 minutes to find an officer. But I understand the idea and what you mean.

Cheers
DRoy

You misread the issue DRoy,...Isaac K says he went out to look for help before 12:45, by virtue of his remark that he heard Louis call for him about 10 minutes after half past 12 regarding the body in the passageway.

So...that means Spooner could have been right when his estimated timing places him by the body before 12:45. It means the members I quoted earlier could have been right.

What Im suggesting is that Louis could have arrived before he said he did, and no-one would have seen him..just after Smith left....but the last 10 minutes to 1am Fanny was at her door and didnt see or hear anything coming down towards the club. If he arrived earlier than he said, found out that a woman was just killed inside the gates ..and he used some of the time between 12:45 and 1am to talk with Eagle and some of the other members about what should be said to the police before sending Eagle out and heading out himself....I could understand why he might do that.

The Police had just finished door to door searches that month of the neighborhoods that held many Immigrant Jews, and it would seem that Anderson understood from those reports that an Immigrant Jew in the area was likely the culprit,... and here Louis is running a club that Police believe is populated with Anarchists, and neighbors refer to as "low men", almost all of which onsite at the time of the murder are Immigrant Jews. He pulls in and finds out someone from inside those gates cut the woman...sometime before 12:45, but after 12:35. Louis knows what the police will think...he knows what the neighbors will think...he quickly discusses the options with others that have a stake in the club in some way, and they decide before heading out for help that no-one was in the passageway before 12:40, no-one saw anything, and that the body wasnt discovered until Louis arrived at 1am.

So Eagle says..."I couldnt be sure a body was there" at 12:40, but I saw no-one...and Lave says that he didnt see anyone or anything for the 10 minutes previous to that...even though the PC suggests something was going on in the street at 12:35 when Lave says he is looking into the street. Lave, perhaps sloppily, doesnt see Eagle...but nor does Eagle see Lave. Louis says he found the woman when arriving at 1am..but Fanny doesnt see him coming or arriving and she is at the door from about 12:50 until 1. We know this because she sees Goldstein...who comes forward the Tuesday night following the crime to explain his pass by the club seen by Fanny. Later Sunday night, a possible acquaintance of Wolff Wess, someone who was possibly living in a cottage on that property until earlier that day, or at least nearby it... comes in and provides a story that places the victim outside the gates when she is attacked, by a Gentile. His related story has no corroboration in the actual physical evidence nor is it validated by any other witness in the area....the young couple, Brown passing by at 12:45...Spooner and his date loitering outside the Beehive. Fanny Mortimer...at her door off and on from 12:30 until 1am...the last 10 minutes consistently.

Tell me that within that confluence of stories there is not the possibility that some club witnesses lied about what they saw and when, Israel was a plant, Louis arrived earlier than he reported, and Fanny Mortimer actually missed only Louis's arrival...because it was before 12:50am.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Mike,

I know your theory and in my opinion it is not unreasonable though it seems most think otherwise. I may not agree or accept it at this time but some of it does happen to coincide with my theory on Mortimer & Schwartz.

In regards to Isaac & Louis, it could be argued for the millionth time people's times were estimated and probably not that accurate. Isaac couldn't have gone looking for a policeman at 12:30 as surely it should not have taken 30 minutes to find an officer. But I understand the idea and what you mean.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Mike,

Let's not forget Mortimer in this. In the Daily News article where she isn't quoted suggests she heard the loud footsteps before 12:45 ("...shortly before a quarter to one o'clock"). That too could put the murder at least 15 minutes before 1:00 if the footsteps were those of someone fleeing rather than an officer which we know was not there since 12:35 when Smith was.

There are some that believe this version of her story is the most accurate even more so than her quoted versions. While I personally don't share the same opinion regarding this version of Mortimer, I thought it worth mentioning for what it's worth.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy,

Youve seen my point, thank you. . All Ive been saying is that there is some evidence we can consider that does put Diemshutz, Eagle, Schwartz and Lave in question. The people most at risk financially if the club were to be closed based on some suspicions about them in this matter.

I think this happened.......within 1 hour of Liz Strides cut Police were interviewing the members in the passageway. Immediately after some filtered out and gave statements to the press. The memories of what they experienced would still be at their most potent point...they would likely be experiencing exhilaration and fear keeping them alert.

So...why would some lesser important club members give statements that contradicted the Club Steward, the Speaker and later that day, the theatrical looking witness? Wouldnt they all be in on the illusion of timing to protect the club? My guess is initially, no...not until they could be spoken with individually and privately about it.

Thats why the people most responsible for the club all seem to corroborate each other in that no-one saw anything before 1am, and a few of the members recalled that they were alerted to the body before 12:45.

I believe one of the most interesting signs may be Louis's statement that he and Isaac[s]...(which many people assume was actually his sidekick Isaac Kozebrodski, a 17 year old lad),....left the yard together to look for help after he arrived at 1 and had called up to Isaac for help. IF Louis did mean to say that it was he and Isaac Kozebrodski that left together after 1am for help....then why does Isaac Kozebrodski say, within an hour of the event, that he was summoned by Louis about 10 minutes after he arrived back at the Club at 12:30? Why does Isaac say he left alone to get help? At Louis's insistence. Upon Isaac's return he says sees Eagle and a policeman heading into the passageway, just after 1am.

Its that I can see why the club staff would protect the club and conspire to tell a "we saw nothing" story...but I dont see why Isaac would have, or could have been spoken with by a staffer before talking to the Press. And I dont see why Spooner would have....his story corroberates the earlier timings given by the other witnesses, but we are told he must have been mistaken. Why? Cause Louis didnt arrive until after 1am, and no body was discovered before then? Says who? A few men who work for the club and a witness to an event no-one else sees or hears.

Numbers speak volumes.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Mike,

Let's not forget Mortimer in this. In the Daily News article where she isn't quoted suggests she heard the loud footsteps before 12:45 ("...shortly before a quarter to one o'clock"). That too could put the murder at least 15 minutes before 1:00 if the footsteps were those of someone fleeing rather than an officer which we know was not there since 12:35 when Smith was.

There are some that believe this version of her story is the most accurate even more so than her quoted versions. While I personally don't share the same opinion regarding this version of Mortimer, I thought it worth mentioning for what it's worth.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

The point is Mike, where evidence is lacking one can make up any story one wants. And there's no reliable evidence which suggests that Liz Stride's body was found at 12:40 a.m. September the 30th 1888.

The point was Observer is that there is some witness evidence that suggests the body was discovered around that time, and not 1am;

Daily News, Oct 1st: Isaac K:"About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard"

Daily News, Oct 1st: Abraham Heschberg: "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."

Daily News, Oct 1st, attributed to Edward Spooner: "In his testimony, Spooner believed that he had first arrived at Dutfield's Yard at "25 minutes to 1", which is plainly erroneous - baring in mind he was fixing times by the closing of the public houses.

There are also other early member accounts that seem to corroborate that the time they were alerted to the body as sometime just before 12:45. I started a thread long ago about the timings given that night, and listed then chronologically, I looked for it to re-post it, but couldnt locate it.

There are a few accounts that state the time the body was discovered, and only 1 account stated it was at 1 or just after....Louis. Only 1 account stated that anything transpired in front of the gates at around 12:45 invovling Liz Stride...Israels. Only 2 accounts state that the passageway was empty at 12:40.....Morris and Lave. And somehow they missed seeing each other in that narrow passage at that same time.

Louis is the club steward, Morris was the nights speaker, Lave is a resident of the cottages, and Israel is rumored to have known Wolff Wess a few years prior to that night. Make of that what you will.

So....the facts are that more witness members stated on the night of the murder that they were alerted to the body before 12:45 than at any other time given by other witnesses, and at least 1 outside source seems to have agreed with that time.

What has been accepted Observer isnt what has been recorded, its just that people have gravitated to the story by Schwartz and the timings of Louis and some of the other club associated members as being the one they prefer.

Its not that there is no evidence for an earlier time...its that an earlier time means people lied and there was no boogyman assault at 12:45. 2 things most are reticent to accept.

I can accept discrepancies on time when I realize just what was at stake for Louis and Morris and Wess if the evidence pointed to someone at the club that night....and I cant accept witness evidence that is not supported in at least some fashion by a formal police presentation of the evidence given.

The timings given for that night provide a loopy story that cannot be accurate, its contradictory and illogical and provides multiple discovery times and uncorroborated stories of assault in the street...so, either some people lied or many people made the same errors.

The ones I believe likely lied are the ones that would be most responsible for the activities on that property that night...which to me makes so much sense I cannot fathom why the idea is resisted so harshly.

Cheers

[Observer]

The point is Mike, where evidence is lacking one can make up any story one wants. And there's no reliable evidence which suggests that Liz Stride's body was found at 12:40 a.m. September the 30th 1888.

One thing, I wrote that story before I was aware of the horrific events that transpired yesterday in Woolwich. I myself am an ex British serviceman, and I aplologise if my scenario was a little too graphic. My thoughts are with the soldier and his family.

Regards

Observer

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike

Firstly I'd say have a look at Dave's post (40) and take note. I incidently agree with him.

Let me ask you a question. Why the subterfuge, the conspiring to decieve?

Like you, I have studied all the relevent material, and can't for the life of me come to the conclusion that you arrive at. What you suggest requires a very large stretch of the imagination for your theory to be anywhere near the truth.. More of this later.

If you look at the various witness statements, that is the statements they made to the police, at inquest, and in the press you'll see that their individual statements varied somewhat. Indeed statements by the same individual varied between newspapers. This is exactly the sort of thing I would expect. Winesses can not state precise times unless they looked at a timepiece prior to the incident they are describing.

If there was collusion between club member's I would expect their times regarding the incident they were describing to be consistent. This is clearly not the case.

Let me conduct a little mind exercise. I'll base it roughly on the method's you employ to arrive at the conclusion that Liz Stride was found by club member's of the IWEC at 12:40 a.m. And that member's lied to the police, the inquest, and the press to conceal the fact that a club member had murdered Liz Stride.

I contend that Joseph Lawende murdered Kate Eddowes.

All things Japanese, and Chinese were very popular in Victorian London, and the imperial Club in Duke Street decide to put on a Chinese night. And so on the night of the 29 September 1888 Lawende, Harris, and Levy found themselves at the club enjoying the Nuit Chinoiserie.

They had Chinese transvestite Hav A Luk (aka Limehouse Lil) perform a striptease, Saki wine tasting, Bonsai for beginners presented by Charlie Chan, and, wait for it, opium (Kosher) pipes by the dozen to enjoy.

Now Mr Lawende, (not being fully aware of the effects of opium) over indulged, and as they spilled out onto the street he was in mischeivous mood.

As they passed Church Passage Mr Levy remarked "Look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about" . Lawende looked across the street, but all he could see was a huge psychedelic baloon. As I said he was in mischievous mood and Lawende ran across the street and kicked the baloon.

He kicked it down Church Passage into Mitre Square, and as it came to rest in the corner of the square, he decided to burst it. Drawing out the ornamental Japanese dragon dagger he'd bought at the club he punctured the balloon, and commenced to slash at it, wearing himself out in the process.

Wearily he returned to Levy, and Harris, and they made their way home.

The next day Lawende as he put his trousers on felt something sticky aginst his leg, he put his hand in his pocket and pulled out a human kidney. He immediately went and sought out Levy, who told him that a woman had been murdered in Mitre square the night before. Lawende quickly realised what he had done, and the next stop was Harris's house.

To cut a long story short, all three decided to agree that they had seen Kate Eddowes in Duke Street the night before, but that they has saw her talking to a man. Sailor man was born. The rest is history.

This conspiracy stuff, piece of cake.
Regards

Observer

And your suggesting that I am the imaginative one here?

There is no question regarding witnesses that stated the night of the murder they were in the passageway to see the dead woman shortly after 12:30...its documented. Its all right there in the press of the day. Nothing for me to construct, as it were.

As to why the club members would be willing to provide false times to ease any suspicions that they had something to do with the murder..that my friend is simply a matter of their history and your understanding of human nature.

Cheers

[Observer]

Hi Mike

Firstly I'd say have a look at Dave's post (40) and take note. I incidently agree with him.

Let me ask you a question. Why the subterfuge, the conspiring to decieve?

Like you, I have studied all the relevent material, and can't for the life of me come to the conclusion that you arrive at. What you suggest requires a very large stretch of the imagination for your theory to be anywhere near the truth.. More of this later.

If you look at the various witness statements, that is the statements they made to the police, at inquest, and in the press you'll see that their individual statements varied somewhat. Indeed statements by the same individual varied between newspapers. This is exactly the sort of thing I would expect. Winesses can not state precise times unless they looked at a timepiece prior to the incident they are describing.

If there was collusion between club member's I would expect their times regarding the incident they were describing to be consistent. This is clearly not the case.

Let me conduct a little mind exercise. I'll base it roughly on the method's you employ to arrive at the conclusion that Liz Stride was found by club member's of the IWEC at 12:40 a.m. And that member's lied to the police, the inquest, and the press to conceal the fact that a club member had murdered Liz Stride.

I contend that Joseph Lawende murdered Kate Eddowes.

All things Japanese, and Chinese were very popular in Victorian London, and the imperial Club in Duke Street decide to put on a Chinese night. And so on the night of the 29 September 1888 Lawende, Harris, and Levy found themselves at the club enjoying the Nuit Chinoiserie.

They had Chinese transvestite Hav A Luk (aka Limehouse Lil) perform a striptease, Saki wine tasting, Bonsai for beginners presented by Charlie Chan, and, wait for it, opium (Kosher) pipes by the dozen to enjoy.

Now Mr Lawende, (not being fully aware of the effects of opium) over indulged, and as they spilled out onto the street he was in mischeivous mood.

As they passed Church Passage Mr Levy remarked "Look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about" . Lawende looked across the street, but all he could see was a huge psychedelic baloon. As I said he was in mischievous mood and Lawende ran across the street and kicked the baloon.

He kicked it down Church Passage into Mitre Square, and as it came to rest in the corner of the square, he decided to burst it. Drawing out the ornamental Japanese dragon dagger he'd bought at the club he punctured the balloon, and commenced to slash at it, wearing himself out in the process.

Wearily he returned to Levy, and Harris, and they made their way home.

The next day Lawende as he put his trousers on felt something sticky aginst his leg, he put his hand in his pocket and pulled out a human kidney. He immediately went and sought out Levy, who told him that a woman had been murdered in Mitre square the night before. Lawende quickly realised what he had done, and the next stop was Harris's house.

To cut a long story short, all three decided to agree that they had seen Kate Eddowes in Duke Street the night before, but that they has saw her talking to a man. Sailor man was born. The rest is history.

This conspiracy stuff, piece of cake.
Regards

Observer

[Michael W Richards]

Michael.

Have you taken the trouble to collect all the relevant statements (both press & Inquest) which have a bearing on the time, witnesses, police, doctors, etc. and see if there is justification for a reassessment of the time of discovery based not on 1:00 am (Diemshitz), but on 12:40 am?

I have studied all the relevant materials Jon, and as I said, there is some substance to a claim that the actual time of the bodies discovery was before 12:45. Im surmising that if that were the case then Louis would likely have been there at around the same time, ...so, if its the case then we have some people providing false times intentionally. The "people" in this case happen to be the most responsible for the club and its operations, and their stories are the ones that have no secondary witness accounts to support them.

Cheers Jon

[Wickerman]

Short story is that there are at least 4 people who stated that night that they were alerted to the body in the passageway at around 12:40....which of course disagrees directly with the accounts given by the clubs management and its speaker that night as well as a supposed witness that does not give testimony at the Inquest....but not with anything that Fanny Mortimer said, or James Brown.

Cheers

Michael.

Have you taken the trouble to collect all the relevant statements (both press & Inquest) which have a bearing on the time, witnesses, police, doctors, etc. and see if there is justification for a reassessment of the time of discovery based not on 1:00 am (Diemshitz), but on 12:40 am?

[Cogidubnus]

I know it's entirely unoriginal, but after all very few people in this area owned timepieces of any kind...All estimates of time are therefore based on either church bells striking the quarter, displays in shop windows, or sheer guesswork...

OK there are a few fobwatches around but not really very many...in fact you could easily be mugged for one!

ALL timings are therefore very approximate indeed - and this applies throughout from Nichols through Stride to Kelly. and if necessary beyond...

Listen up...until as recently as the 60's my paternal grandmother used to judge time based on the whistling of passing trains on the adjacent (to where she lived) London to Brighton main line at Lovers Walk...and this was despite being presented with a watch!

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Afraid not D. Thats not possible. Lets put this to bed. Not one of the witnesses seem able to compute the passage of time accurately during the crucial period leading up to the death of Liz Stride. I believe all spoke truthfully, the thing is they were out in therir timings. It's entirely feasible that Schwartz witnessed an assualt upon Liz Stride, were talking mere minutes from commencment to end regarding this assualt. It's entirely feasible that no one witnessed this assault bar Schwartz, and Pipeman.

Regards

Observer

Thats not a very likely conclusion Observer,... and, if you examine witness accounts from the night of the murder, within 1 hour of its happening, you do get stories from members that corroborate each others times and that clearly explain why Fanny never heard or saw anything near the gates at around 12:45. You get stories from men inside the club that would have had the facility to check a clock before doing what they said they did at around that time, unlike Morris or Louis.... and you get a story from a key member of the witness group....a key member because Louis says that he went with this member after 1am to look for help....and the member says just after the murder that he left alone, at Louis's request....about 10 minutes after he arrived back at the club at 12:30.

Short story is that there are at least 4 people who stated that night that they were alerted to the body in the passageway at around 12:40....which of course disagrees directly with the accounts given by the clubs management and its speaker that night as well as a supposed witness that does not give testimony at the Inquest....but not with anything that Fanny Mortimer said, or James Brown.

Cheers