Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Jon

Liz was found only two yards or so into the passage, so it wouldn't take much of a shove to put her there...

As people have previously pointed out on here though, when a witness sees two people in the semi-darkness, having a row, it is sometimes difficult to be sure exactly what is going on...I wonder who was pushing, and who pulling, and in which direction, and exactly how clearly Schwartz could make it all out?

I've no motive in asking that by the way - just musing aloud really....

I've been wondering at the suddenness of the attack too (be it fisticuffs or a knife) and am surmising it might have been the continuation of a dispute from earlier in the evening. I can't dismiss Mr Kidney quite so firmly as you can, but he must have passed muster with the Police at the time and they'd have asked some pretty searching questions!

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

I believe the assault and throwing down in the passageway, witnessed by Schwartz, was in fact the knife attack; I think what he thought was a grip on the shoulders may've been BS holding her neck back, and he passed the knife across her throat on the way down...and I believe it was the fact that there were possibly two inadvertent witnesses (pipe man from the Beer Shop and Schwartz passing by at even closer range) that caused him to call out a curse, break off and do a runner instead of proceeding with his mutilation.

Hi Dave.

So you see the knife being wielded while she was on the footpath, not in the yard? The spontaneity of this attack is troubling, and further so if a knife was pulled within the first few seconds.

I suspect Liz may have accompanied her killer to the venue ... if he was Jack, it was a scenario that had worked before for him before,

That's my take on speculating that the Smith suspect was still with her. It's just that he was not seen by Schwartz.

And yes it may well be that, whether Jack or not, Liz knew the killer, at least by sight, and possibly closer than that...she may have been seen talking to him earlier in the evening.

Knew BS-man, yes.

So what caused the man to assault her on the spot? That is the most intriguing question for me.

1 - Stride said something to him he did not like.

ANS - Is that really likely that a woman like Stride would antagonize a passing stranger for no apparent reason?


2 - They knew each other and he tried to pull her along with him?

ANS - If he was an earlier, or previous client, wouldn't he more likely try to push her into the yard to try his chances?, as opposed to knocking her down on the footpath.
Unless, he saw her with someone else, might he then choose to pull her away with him?

I'm inclined to think the assault out in the open was not directly connected to Stride's murder.



Was BS-man Michael Kidney? - I would say a most emphatic "no!"

The story told by Schwartz was already in the press on the Monday, so whoever the man was who Schwartz saw, he knew there was a witness who could identify him.
Whoever BS-man was, once the Schwartz story was out he will lie low. He will not appear in court (as Michael Kidney) two days later and risk being identified.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Stewart

As you say, I'd normally be far more trusting of an Official Report than a newspaper based one...but I was seeking elucidation of what constituted the "footway" in the official report, (I see even you have added an explanatory reference to footpath). I always understood pavement to be the usual term used and "footway" made me curious enough to wonder whether that could include the semi-paved passage.

I'm sorry to hear that you find the discussions in the forums tedious and repetitive - some of us though are real newbies and haven't discussed these matters with our peers to the same extent that you must have down the years. To us, the truths elucidated by wrangling things out are often fresh and new, and we tend to forget that the "vets" have probably heard it all before

Every good wish

Dave

[Stewart P Evans]

Official Reports

When looking at the written record that has survived from 1888 we should always prefer that contained in a police report over reports that appeared in the press. The Star report in this case seems patently unreliable. This particular aspect of the Stride murder was discussed some time ago on JTRForums in great detail and all the points were addressed then.

This is why I find the message boards so tedious; they are endlessly repetitive. And I don't intend to get embroiled in endless boring, circular and speculative debate. People will interpret things as they wish, and believe whatever they wish. Fine, I'm not out to convert anyone, I just despair when they quote press reports as 'fact' and ditch official material in favour of unknown and often unreliable reporters.

[Wickerman]

It's really quite simple Wicky
Liz and bs man had been meandering about and were in front of dutfields yard about 12:40. When he realized she was not going to go into an alley and or engage in an act of prostitutution he left her only to lose his temper, turn around and suddenly attack her cutting her throat in the street. He bolts immediately after he see Scwartz and Liz hearing noises from the club staggers toward perceived help but then expires in the yard. The whole thing only takes a few minutes. Mortimer simply missed it, Scwartz is telling the truth and Liz was killed by the ripper, who lost his cool with a reluctant victim. And this thread is done.

Thankyou Abby, problem solved, we can all sleep tonight

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Stewart

I accept the wisdom behind your caution...and lest you think I was putting words into Schwartz's mouth that weren't there I was trying to bear in mind the words of Schwartz's second statement, published in the Star of 1st October

and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street.

As both statements were made via an interpreter, I suppose it depends on who got the best interpreter (although it is the Star version which contains Dagger Man or knife man)

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Have you watered the brains today Igor?

Well Abby they do say fools seldom differ!

All the best

Dave

[Stewart P Evans]

Careful

We should always be careful to adhere to the wording of the original official records, where they exist, rather than adopt the words of those who would seek to put their own interpretation on what few facts are known and use alternative language.

We know that there are those who would like to see the attack on Stride, witnessed by Schwartz, transferred to within the gates of Dutfield's Yard. Thus it is often their wont to suggest that Stride was 'thrown down in the passageway', as opposed to the account contained in the official records. We do not have Schwartz's original statement but we do have the gist of what Schwartz stated from Chief Inspector Swanson's report of 19th October 1888. In this Swanson clearly writes, '...he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway [footpath] & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.'

I appreciate that the recent 'definitive' documentary (which sought to establish Schwartz as the witness to the Ripper's attack on Stride) certainly portrayed this incident as such, but the only 'definitive' statement we have of what Schwartz saw is that contained in Swanson's report which, we must assume, is accurate.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Jon

I believe the assault and throwing down in the passageway, witnessed by Schwartz, was in fact the knife attack; I think what he thought was a grip on the shoulders may've been BS holding her neck back, and he passed the knife across her throat on the way down...and I believe it was the fact that there were possibly two inadvertent witnesses (pipe man from the Beer Shop and Schwartz passing by at even closer range) that caused him to call out a curse, break off and do a runner instead of proceeding with his mutilation.

I suspect Liz may have accompanied her killer to the venue ... if he was Jack, it was a scenario that had worked before for him before, and after all he didn't know nosy Mrs Mortimer was about to appear did he? (How fortunate for him that neither Bucks Row nor Hanbury Street had a nosy Mrs Mortimer).

And yes it may well be that, whether Jack or not, Liz knew the killer, at least by sight, and possibly closer than that...she may have been seen talking to him earlier in the evening.

All the best

Dave

Wow . Read my mind. Amazing. See my above post.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Dave.

The reservation I have with BS-man killing Liz at 12:45 is that Mortimer is just about to appear at her door for the next 10 minutes or so.
We can't say she has already been stood at her door because she never saw Eygle or Lave who were out and about between 12:30-40. So she must have opened her door only minutes after the commotion described by Schwartz.

Mortimer heard slow footsteps, possibly BS-man staggering along passed her door? There's a scuffle, and a whimpering, Stride falls down, but is she mortally wounded so early? (about 12:45?). All we read is that he pushed her down.

If BS-man continued the assault after Schwartz departed, then how is it that Mortimer, about to open her door, heard nothing or saw no-one leave?
She heard no voices, no physical altercation, and more importantly saw no-one leave the yard.
That 10 minutes(?) appears to have been devoid of any activity with the exception of Goldstein passing along just before she stepped inside about 1:00 am.

The other difficulty I have is the assumption we all have had that Stride was alone in Dutfields Yard. She had been seen with the 'parcel man' (by Smith) just 10 minutes before Schwartz appeared - where did he go?

Stride had been seen several times that night, but never alone. Schwartz did not see anyone else in the yard, true, only BS-man & the woman, but his attention was taken up by the scuffle, another man could have been stood deeper in the shadows of the yard out of sight.

Whoever this BS-man was, something spontaneous caused him to attack Stride, it appears he knew her. Either casually or personally, we cannot be sure.
I wonder if he saw that she was with someone else and that is what caused the scuffle?

I have trouble accepting her standing alone in the shadows, unless she was with someone, which would explain to me why she was there.

I'm suspicious that the 'someone' was the man seen by PC Smith, and that this was her killer - only suspicious mind you

It's really quite simple Wicky
Liz and bs man had been meandering about and were in front of dutfields yard about 12:40. When he realized she was not going to go into an alley and or engage in an act of prostitutution he left her only to lose his temper, turn around and suddenly attack her cutting her throat in the street. He bolts immediately after he see Scwartz and Liz hearing noises from the club staggers toward perceived help but then expires in the yard. The whole thing only takes a few minutes. Mortimer simply missed it, Scwartz is telling the truth and Liz was killed by the ripper, who lost his cool with a reluctant victim. And this thread is done.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

I believe the assault and throwing down in the passageway, witnessed by Schwartz, was in fact the knife attack; I think what he thought was a grip on the shoulders may've been BS holding her neck back, and he passed the knife across her throat on the way down...and I believe it was the fact that there were possibly two inadvertent witnesses (pipe man from the Beer Shop and Schwartz passing by at even closer range) that caused him to call out a curse, break off and do a runner instead of proceeding with his mutilation.

I suspect Liz may have accompanied her killer to the venue ... if he was Jack, it was a scenario that had worked before for him before, and after all he didn't know nosy Mrs Mortimer was about to appear did he? (How fortunate for him that neither Bucks Row nor Hanbury Street had a nosy Mrs Mortimer).

And yes it may well be that, whether Jack or not, Liz knew the killer, at least by sight, and possibly closer than that...she may have been seen talking to him earlier in the evening.

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hello Dave.

The reservation I have with BS-man killing Liz at 12:45 is that Mortimer is just about to appear at her door for the next 10 minutes or so.
We can't say she has already been stood at her door because she never saw Eygle or Lave who were out and about between 12:30-40. So she must have opened her door only minutes after the commotion described by Schwartz.

Mortimer heard slow footsteps, possibly BS-man staggering along passed her door? There's a scuffle, and a whimpering, Stride falls down, but is she mortally wounded so early? (about 12:45?). All we read is that he pushed her down.

If BS-man continued the assault after Schwartz departed, then how is it that Mortimer, about to open her door, heard nothing or saw no-one leave?
She heard no voices, no physical altercation, and more importantly saw no-one leave the yard.
That 10 minutes(?) appears to have been devoid of any activity with the exception of Goldstein passing along just before she stepped inside about 1:00 am.

The other difficulty I have is the assumption we all have had that Stride was alone in Dutfields Yard. She had been seen with the 'parcel man' (by Smith) just 10 minutes before Schwartz appeared - where did he go?

Stride had been seen several times that night, but never alone. Schwartz did not see anyone else in the yard, true, only BS-man & the woman, but his attention was taken up by the scuffle, another man could have been stood deeper in the shadows of the yard out of sight.

Whoever this BS-man was, something spontaneous caused him to attack Stride, it appears he knew her. Either casually or personally, we cannot be sure.
I wonder if he saw that she was with someone else and that is what caused the scuffle?

I have trouble accepting her standing alone in the shadows, unless she was with someone, which would explain to me why she was there.

I'm suspicious that the 'someone' was the man seen by PC Smith, and that this was her killer - only suspicious mind you

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Jon

I've nothing much invested either way, (barring that nagging feeling at the back of my mind that Schwartz might just be the Seaside Home witness), but for me everything works better with a 1245 attack.

Two serious attacks on Liz in ten minutes? Possible of course but...and there is also, of course, the issue of why she cried out three times but not loudly...so I think I'll stick where I am at present.

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Harry

I agree that Mortimer's evidence, at first appearance, is useful only as negative information, (presumably why she didn't appear at the Inquest), but even so, it's valuable to us in that it suggests that nothing loud or attention-grabbing happened during a ten-minute period between 1245/50 and 1255/1.00.

It narrows the time of attack to the two relatively narrow bands either side

As regards Brown, yes he's interesting, and either he or Schwartz have only to be literally a couple of minutes out in their guesswork....

All the best

Dave

[harry]

Brown is stated as returning home when he saw a person he believed was Stride,who was in the company of a male person.Now whether his time of 12.45,is a calculated time,the result of sighting a timepiece,or a combination of both,it does correspond with that of Schwartz.Pity they were not asked how they could be sure,but maybe they were.From there it is a matter of speculation as to what and when incidents occurred,untill one O''clock,give or take a couple of minutes,when Stride's body was discovered.Mortimer's information can be ignored,because no matter how one twists it,she saw nothing of importance.At the best it can be treated as negative evidence.