Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Michael W Richards]

The point is Mike, where evidence is lacking one can make up any story one wants. And there's no reliable evidence which suggests that Liz Stride's body was found at 12:40 a.m. September the 30th 1888.

The point was Observer is that there is some witness evidence that suggests the body was discovered around that time, and not 1am;

Daily News, Oct 1st: Isaac K:"About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard"

Daily News, Oct 1st: Abraham Heschberg: "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."

Daily News, Oct 1st, attributed to Edward Spooner: "In his testimony, Spooner believed that he had first arrived at Dutfield's Yard at "25 minutes to 1", which is plainly erroneous - baring in mind he was fixing times by the closing of the public houses.

There are also other early member accounts that seem to corroborate that the time they were alerted to the body as sometime just before 12:45. I started a thread long ago about the timings given that night, and listed then chronologically, I looked for it to re-post it, but couldnt locate it.

There are a few accounts that state the time the body was discovered, and only 1 account stated it was at 1 or just after....Louis. Only 1 account stated that anything transpired in front of the gates at around 12:45 invovling Liz Stride...Israels. Only 2 accounts state that the passageway was empty at 12:40.....Morris and Lave. And somehow they missed seeing each other in that narrow passage at that same time.

Louis is the club steward, Morris was the nights speaker, Lave is a resident of the cottages, and Israel is rumored to have known Wolff Wess a few years prior to that night. Make of that what you will.

So....the facts are that more witness members stated on the night of the murder that they were alerted to the body before 12:45 than at any other time given by other witnesses, and at least 1 outside source seems to have agreed with that time.

What has been accepted Observer isnt what has been recorded, its just that people have gravitated to the story by Schwartz and the timings of Louis and some of the other club associated members as being the one they prefer.

Its not that there is no evidence for an earlier time...its that an earlier time means people lied and there was no boogyman assault at 12:45. 2 things most are reticent to accept.

I can accept discrepancies on time when I realize just what was at stake for Louis and Morris and Wess if the evidence pointed to someone at the club that night....and I cant accept witness evidence that is not supported in at least some fashion by a formal police presentation of the evidence given.

The timings given for that night provide a loopy story that cannot be accurate, its contradictory and illogical and provides multiple discovery times and uncorroborated stories of assault in the street...so, either some people lied or many people made the same errors.

The ones I believe likely lied are the ones that would be most responsible for the activities on that property that night...which to me makes so much sense I cannot fathom why the idea is resisted so harshly.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Mike,

Let's not forget Mortimer in this. In the Daily News article where she isn't quoted suggests she heard the loud footsteps before 12:45 ("...shortly before a quarter to one o'clock"). That too could put the murder at least 15 minutes before 1:00 if the footsteps were those of someone fleeing rather than an officer which we know was not there since 12:35 when Smith was.

There are some that believe this version of her story is the most accurate even more so than her quoted versions. While I personally don't share the same opinion regarding this version of Mortimer, I thought it worth mentioning for what it's worth.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Mike,

Let's not forget Mortimer in this. In the Daily News article where she isn't quoted suggests she heard the loud footsteps before 12:45 ("...shortly before a quarter to one o'clock"). That too could put the murder at least 15 minutes before 1:00 if the footsteps were those of someone fleeing rather than an officer which we know was not there since 12:35 when Smith was.

There are some that believe this version of her story is the most accurate even more so than her quoted versions. While I personally don't share the same opinion regarding this version of Mortimer, I thought it worth mentioning for what it's worth.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy,

Youve seen my point, thank you. . All Ive been saying is that there is some evidence we can consider that does put Diemshutz, Eagle, Schwartz and Lave in question. The people most at risk financially if the club were to be closed based on some suspicions about them in this matter.

I think this happened.......within 1 hour of Liz Strides cut Police were interviewing the members in the passageway. Immediately after some filtered out and gave statements to the press. The memories of what they experienced would still be at their most potent point...they would likely be experiencing exhilaration and fear keeping them alert.

So...why would some lesser important club members give statements that contradicted the Club Steward, the Speaker and later that day, the theatrical looking witness? Wouldnt they all be in on the illusion of timing to protect the club? My guess is initially, no...not until they could be spoken with individually and privately about it.

Thats why the people most responsible for the club all seem to corroborate each other in that no-one saw anything before 1am, and a few of the members recalled that they were alerted to the body before 12:45.

I believe one of the most interesting signs may be Louis's statement that he and Isaac[s]...(which many people assume was actually his sidekick Isaac Kozebrodski, a 17 year old lad),....left the yard together to look for help after he arrived at 1 and had called up to Isaac for help. IF Louis did mean to say that it was he and Isaac Kozebrodski that left together after 1am for help....then why does Isaac Kozebrodski say, within an hour of the event, that he was summoned by Louis about 10 minutes after he arrived back at the Club at 12:30? Why does Isaac say he left alone to get help? At Louis's insistence. Upon Isaac's return he says sees Eagle and a policeman heading into the passageway, just after 1am.

Its that I can see why the club staff would protect the club and conspire to tell a "we saw nothing" story...but I dont see why Isaac would have, or could have been spoken with by a staffer before talking to the Press. And I dont see why Spooner would have....his story corroberates the earlier timings given by the other witnesses, but we are told he must have been mistaken. Why? Cause Louis didnt arrive until after 1am, and no body was discovered before then? Says who? A few men who work for the club and a witness to an event no-one else sees or hears.

Numbers speak volumes.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Mike,

I know your theory and in my opinion it is not unreasonable though it seems most think otherwise. I may not agree or accept it at this time but some of it does happen to coincide with my theory on Mortimer & Schwartz.

In regards to Isaac & Louis, it could be argued for the millionth time people's times were estimated and probably not that accurate. Isaac couldn't have gone looking for a policeman at 12:30 as surely it should not have taken 30 minutes to find an officer. But I understand the idea and what you mean.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Mike,

I know your theory and in my opinion it is not unreasonable though it seems most think otherwise. I may not agree or accept it at this time but some of it does happen to coincide with my theory on Mortimer & Schwartz.

In regards to Isaac & Louis, it could be argued for the millionth time people's times were estimated and probably not that accurate. Isaac couldn't have gone looking for a policeman at 12:30 as surely it should not have taken 30 minutes to find an officer. But I understand the idea and what you mean.

Cheers
DRoy

You misread the issue DRoy,...Isaac K says he went out to look for help before 12:45, by virtue of his remark that he heard Louis call for him about 10 minutes after half past 12 regarding the body in the passageway.

So...that means Spooner could have been right when his estimated timing places him by the body before 12:45. It means the members I quoted earlier could have been right.

What Im suggesting is that Louis could have arrived before he said he did, and no-one would have seen him..just after Smith left....but the last 10 minutes to 1am Fanny was at her door and didnt see or hear anything coming down towards the club. If he arrived earlier than he said, found out that a woman was just killed inside the gates ..and he used some of the time between 12:45 and 1am to talk with Eagle and some of the other members about what should be said to the police before sending Eagle out and heading out himself....I could understand why he might do that.

The Police had just finished door to door searches that month of the neighborhoods that held many Immigrant Jews, and it would seem that Anderson understood from those reports that an Immigrant Jew in the area was likely the culprit,... and here Louis is running a club that Police believe is populated with Anarchists, and neighbors refer to as "low men", almost all of which onsite at the time of the murder are Immigrant Jews. He pulls in and finds out someone from inside those gates cut the woman...sometime before 12:45, but after 12:35. Louis knows what the police will think...he knows what the neighbors will think...he quickly discusses the options with others that have a stake in the club in some way, and they decide before heading out for help that no-one was in the passageway before 12:40, no-one saw anything, and that the body wasnt discovered until Louis arrived at 1am.

So Eagle says..."I couldnt be sure a body was there" at 12:40, but I saw no-one...and Lave says that he didnt see anyone or anything for the 10 minutes previous to that...even though the PC suggests something was going on in the street at 12:35 when Lave says he is looking into the street. Lave, perhaps sloppily, doesnt see Eagle...but nor does Eagle see Lave. Louis says he found the woman when arriving at 1am..but Fanny doesnt see him coming or arriving and she is at the door from about 12:50 until 1. We know this because she sees Goldstein...who comes forward the Tuesday night following the crime to explain his pass by the club seen by Fanny. Later Sunday night, a possible acquaintance of Wolff Wess, someone who was possibly living in a cottage on that property until earlier that day, or at least nearby it... comes in and provides a story that places the victim outside the gates when she is attacked, by a Gentile. His related story has no corroboration in the actual physical evidence nor is it validated by any other witness in the area....the young couple, Brown passing by at 12:45...Spooner and his date loitering outside the Beehive. Fanny Mortimer...at her door off and on from 12:30 until 1am...the last 10 minutes consistently.

Tell me that within that confluence of stories there is not the possibility that some club witnesses lied about what they saw and when, Israel was a plant, Louis arrived earlier than he reported, and Fanny Mortimer actually missed only Louis's arrival...because it was before 12:50am.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Question relating to my last post.......has anyone ever read or heard where specifically on Berner Street Israel Schwartz moved from? Does he appear in any census records up to 1888 residing anywhere on Berner Street?

Would the cottages within the passageway opposite the club be subjected to Census taking? Did 40 Berner Street have any recorded tenants? Cause we know people lived in them at that moment in time.

Cheers again

[DRoy]

Michael,

But Mortimer said she heard Louis' cart arriving after she had gone back inside her house and was prepparing for bed. Your theory could still work but I don't think Louis could have been part of it. In the alternative, Mortimer was mistaken/lying about hearing Louis arrive.

Cheers
DRoy

[Cogidubnus]

But Mortimer said she heard Louis' cart arriving after she had gone back inside her house and was prepparing for bed. Your theory could still work but I don't think Louis could have been part of it. In the alternative, Mortimer was mistaken/lying about hearing Louis arrive.

Hi Roy

No I don't think so...

If I told you she heard not Diemschutz but William Bury's cart departing, it'd amount to the same thing...

She was up in her bedroom, curtains pulled, undressing, and she heard someone dragging something down the road and bashing together two coconut shells a la Python page ...that'd amount to (almost) the same thing!

Please let's not add two and two to produce five...

She heard what?

All the best

Dave

[DRoy]

Dave,

What you've said is possible but unlikely. She knows the sounds of her neighborhood as she lived there for years. She heard the cart and then the commotion at the club so she goes to the scene. If it wasn't Louis' cart then who's was it? Where did the cart go? Is Louis lying then?

Louis is lying just so you can say Mortimer is a bad witness? Come on Dave!

Cheers
DRoy

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Roy

I'm certainly not suggesting at this stage that Louis is lying...far from it...I'm literally saying only that she heard a horse and cart go by and commented on it to her husband...We might surmise it was Diemschutz because the timing's about right, (assuming she went back in at 1245 approx), but we don't know...

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Heres another question...although Im still hoping someone will address the issue of Israels address on Berner Street.

Does anyone recall a mention of Louis's horse and cart being in that yard or passageway, or out on the street, once Spooner, then Johnson arrived? I would imagine that once Louis discovered the body he would then have to make some decision about where to leave his cart and horse before running into find Mrs D in the kitchen. The stables were unused. The passageway is too narrow for that cart and horse and the investigators and bystanders. The street, or the yard seem likely spots. Anyone recall a mention that they were left in either of those places?

My point is,.....did Fanny hear a cart and horse arriving...or being led away to offload the merchandise in its stable on George Yard? Which is probably where Louis should have led his horse before going to Berner Street....so, why did he stop in at the Club when he still had to offload his cart elsewhere?

Best regards

[Cogidubnus]

Now THAT Michael, is a very good question...

Cheers

Dave

[DRoy]

Michael,

I agree, good question about where he eventually parked it.

I would say he was arriving not leaving when Mortimer heard it. Sound would have tailed off if leaving, get louder as approaching. Mortimer or anyone else should be able to recognize the difference between the two.

Cheers
DRoy

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Roy

Not knowing it was going to be important, do you suppose she'd have noticed either way? I wouldn't notice if a passing car or lorry was approaching my house or departing...

In any event, clearly the passing of a horse and cart at this hour was so unusual that she commented on it to her husband...interesting...presumably Diemschutz was departing from his usual routine...why?

All the best

Dave

[DRoy]

Dave,

She probably wouldn't have remembered it if Stride hadn't been murdered and if she didn't see her body. Remember, she was one of the first to arrive after Stride was found (besides the few from the club). Would it be difficult for her to replay the last 30 minutes in her mind, i'd think it would be fairly accurate.

I don't think it necessary to assume Louis' routine had changed. Mortimer and her keen sense of hearing is all that is needed for her to recognize it as Louis' cart and pony and then mentioning the same to her hubby.

Cheers
DRoy