Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Stewart P Evans]

Careful

We should always be careful to adhere to the wording of the original official records, where they exist, rather than adopt the words of those who would seek to put their own interpretation on what few facts are known and use alternative language.

We know that there are those who would like to see the attack on Stride, witnessed by Schwartz, transferred to within the gates of Dutfield's Yard. Thus it is often their wont to suggest that Stride was 'thrown down in the passageway', as opposed to the account contained in the official records. We do not have Schwartz's original statement but we do have the gist of what Schwartz stated from Chief Inspector Swanson's report of 19th October 1888. In this Swanson clearly writes, '...he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway [footpath] & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.'

I appreciate that the recent 'definitive' documentary (which sought to establish Schwartz as the witness to the Ripper's attack on Stride) certainly portrayed this incident as such, but the only 'definitive' statement we have of what Schwartz saw is that contained in Swanson's report which, we must assume, is accurate.

[Cogidubnus]

Have you watered the brains today Igor?

Well Abby they do say fools seldom differ!

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Stewart

I accept the wisdom behind your caution...and lest you think I was putting words into Schwartz's mouth that weren't there I was trying to bear in mind the words of Schwartz's second statement, published in the Star of 1st October

and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street.

As both statements were made via an interpreter, I suppose it depends on who got the best interpreter (although it is the Star version which contains Dagger Man or knife man)

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

It's really quite simple Wicky
Liz and bs man had been meandering about and were in front of dutfields yard about 12:40. When he realized she was not going to go into an alley and or engage in an act of prostitutution he left her only to lose his temper, turn around and suddenly attack her cutting her throat in the street. He bolts immediately after he see Scwartz and Liz hearing noises from the club staggers toward perceived help but then expires in the yard. The whole thing only takes a few minutes. Mortimer simply missed it, Scwartz is telling the truth and Liz was killed by the ripper, who lost his cool with a reluctant victim. And this thread is done.

Thankyou Abby, problem solved, we can all sleep tonight

[Stewart P Evans]

Official Reports

When looking at the written record that has survived from 1888 we should always prefer that contained in a police report over reports that appeared in the press. The Star report in this case seems patently unreliable. This particular aspect of the Stride murder was discussed some time ago on JTRForums in great detail and all the points were addressed then.

This is why I find the message boards so tedious; they are endlessly repetitive. And I don't intend to get embroiled in endless boring, circular and speculative debate. People will interpret things as they wish, and believe whatever they wish. Fine, I'm not out to convert anyone, I just despair when they quote press reports as 'fact' and ditch official material in favour of unknown and often unreliable reporters.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Stewart

As you say, I'd normally be far more trusting of an Official Report than a newspaper based one...but I was seeking elucidation of what constituted the "footway" in the official report, (I see even you have added an explanatory reference to footpath). I always understood pavement to be the usual term used and "footway" made me curious enough to wonder whether that could include the semi-paved passage.

I'm sorry to hear that you find the discussions in the forums tedious and repetitive - some of us though are real newbies and haven't discussed these matters with our peers to the same extent that you must have down the years. To us, the truths elucidated by wrangling things out are often fresh and new, and we tend to forget that the "vets" have probably heard it all before

Every good wish

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

I believe the assault and throwing down in the passageway, witnessed by Schwartz, was in fact the knife attack; I think what he thought was a grip on the shoulders may've been BS holding her neck back, and he passed the knife across her throat on the way down...and I believe it was the fact that there were possibly two inadvertent witnesses (pipe man from the Beer Shop and Schwartz passing by at even closer range) that caused him to call out a curse, break off and do a runner instead of proceeding with his mutilation.

Hi Dave.

So you see the knife being wielded while she was on the footpath, not in the yard? The spontaneity of this attack is troubling, and further so if a knife was pulled within the first few seconds.

I suspect Liz may have accompanied her killer to the venue ... if he was Jack, it was a scenario that had worked before for him before,

That's my take on speculating that the Smith suspect was still with her. It's just that he was not seen by Schwartz.

And yes it may well be that, whether Jack or not, Liz knew the killer, at least by sight, and possibly closer than that...she may have been seen talking to him earlier in the evening.

Knew BS-man, yes.

So what caused the man to assault her on the spot? That is the most intriguing question for me.

1 - Stride said something to him he did not like.

ANS - Is that really likely that a woman like Stride would antagonize a passing stranger for no apparent reason?


2 - They knew each other and he tried to pull her along with him?

ANS - If he was an earlier, or previous client, wouldn't he more likely try to push her into the yard to try his chances?, as opposed to knocking her down on the footpath.
Unless, he saw her with someone else, might he then choose to pull her away with him?

I'm inclined to think the assault out in the open was not directly connected to Stride's murder.



Was BS-man Michael Kidney? - I would say a most emphatic "no!"

The story told by Schwartz was already in the press on the Monday, so whoever the man was who Schwartz saw, he knew there was a witness who could identify him.
Whoever BS-man was, once the Schwartz story was out he will lie low. He will not appear in court (as Michael Kidney) two days later and risk being identified.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Jon

Liz was found only two yards or so into the passage, so it wouldn't take much of a shove to put her there...

As people have previously pointed out on here though, when a witness sees two people in the semi-darkness, having a row, it is sometimes difficult to be sure exactly what is going on...I wonder who was pushing, and who pulling, and in which direction, and exactly how clearly Schwartz could make it all out?

I've no motive in asking that by the way - just musing aloud really....

I've been wondering at the suddenness of the attack too (be it fisticuffs or a knife) and am surmising it might have been the continuation of a dispute from earlier in the evening. I can't dismiss Mr Kidney quite so firmly as you can, but he must have passed muster with the Police at the time and they'd have asked some pretty searching questions!

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Cut it out!

...Was BS-man Michael Kidney? - I would say a most emphatic "no!"

The story told by Schwartz was already in the press on the Monday, so whoever the man was who Schwartz saw, he knew there was a witness who could identify him.
Whoever BS-man was, once the Schwartz story was out he will lie low. He will not appear in court (as Michael Kidney) two days later and risk being identified.

You are making way too much sense here. How dare you! Although if it was Kidney, it would've been one hell of a play to make.

[Wickerman]

Hi Stewart

As you say, I'd normally be far more trusting of an Official Report than a newspaper based one...but I was seeking elucidation of what constituted the "footway" in the official report, (I see even you have added an explanatory reference to footpath). I always understood pavement to be the usual term used and "footway" made me curious enough to wonder whether that could include the semi-paved passage.

Hi Dave.

Interesting that you should point this out. If you use the Press Search and enter "footway" you will see all the press articles where that term is use, and clearly it is the footpath.

However, it also occurred to me that Dutfields Yard was semi-paved, so I wondered if the paved section may have been referred to as 'footway' as opposed to cobbles or gutter.
Thankfully, our trustworthy Morning Advertiser described the yard in detail:
"The gutter of the yard passage is made of paving stones, the centre being of irregular boulders. The body was lying half on the paving stones."

So the body did indeed lay on the regular paved section, which was the gutter, but as those paved sections were on a slight grade, it cannot be called a footway.

Pencil sketch of Phil Hutchinson's photo.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon

Liz was found only two yards or so into the passage, so it wouldn't take much of a shove to put her there...

Hi Dave.

I think we need a sound medical authority to explain how the muscular spasm works to clench the hands of a woman when physically threatened.
I think most of us of the great unwashed are divided on the subject.

How on earth, if Stride was pushed into the yard, did she fall and still retain those cachous? and this 'push' must also come before the knife attack, yet she held on to them damn cachous...unbelievable!

I guess all of us are highly resistant to the possibility that they were placed in her hands after the murder?
Me too....

This is indeed a three-pipe problem.

[Investigator]

Hi Dave.

I think we need a sound medical authority to explain how the muscular spasm works to clench the hands of a woman when physically threatened.
I think most of us of the great unwashed are divided on the subject.

This is indeed a three-pipe problem.

A note on some forensic issues:
In present times, TOD (time of death) means unrecoverable brain death but in 1888 would have been the loss of vital signs, heart, pulse, respiration and reflexes. That might mean being in a coma which, given CPR in time can be recovered. TOD depends on the nature of the injury and in the case of blood loss depends on the haemorrhage rate. Hence, 500 ml over 15 minutes and you’re still standing. The same amount in 1 minute and you’re out cold. The partial division of the carotid artery would mean a rapid loss of blood and consciousness within 1 – 2 seconds.
The medical evidence is that Elisabeth had about 1 pound of clotted blood (500Ml) in the gutter under her neck. Blood ceases to clot very quickly after death, triggered by cascading chemical changes at the point if injury. With sudden death the blood remains spontaneously coagulable only for a brief period immediately following death; it then becomes completely free from fibrinogen and will never clot again. But the rate at which clotting occurs is also temperature dependent. At normal body temperature, (38ºC) coagulation takes about 2 minutes, at 10ºC it takes about 12 minutes.
The Coroner asked of Spooner “Did you notice whether the blood was still moving on the ground? - It was running down the gutter” replied Spooner. This clearly indicates that when Spooner came to view the body, some 6 minutes before Johnson, the blood in the gutter was liquid.
A woman of her size and average weight would have a blood volume of about 3.5 liters and a loss of 40% blood volume (1.4 L) would not sustain life. At rest, the output of the heart is 4 – 5 liters per minute and a loss of 1.5 liters of blood from Elisabeth’s body would take less than half a minute if the heart had continued to function efficiently.
There is some indication however that her collapse may be due to heart block resulting in a sudden fall in blood pressure. By conjecture, this could have occurred by severing the left vagus nerve, no comment is made in the post mortem report. She could still have been alive, albeit unconscious until brain dead for, at a guess, 4-5 minutes after the injury. The heart could have regained contraction after a minute or two albeit in tachycardia, (ineffective as a pump) otherwise blood drained by gravity to reach the door of the kitchen.

[lynn cates]

hurdle

Hello Jon.

"How on earth, if Stride was pushed into the yard, did she fall and still retain those cachous? and this 'push' must also come before the knife attack, yet she held on to them damn cachous...unbelievable!"

And this is the MAIN hurdle one must leap if one buys into the Schwartz story.

Cheers.
LC

[Investigator]

Sorry Wickerman, got carried away on some other post .
Cadaveric spasm is a muscular stiffening, usually in hands that are holding an object. It occurs at the moment of death and records the last act of life. The cause is not known but its usually found when intense emotion is aroused at the time of a violent death. e.g car accidents
Cadaveric spasm is only diagnosed if an object is held firmly and needs considerable force to break the grip. That the hand holding the cachues could be opened by Blackwell indicates there was no cadaveric spasm. Its absence also indicates that Elisabeth was not aware of what happened to her. The throat injury was so sudden there was no fear or anxiety response that initiates the accompanying hormone reaction e.g. ADH
I've had occasion to render instant death in a few animals for the purpose of measuring pituitary hormones for medical research purposes - a long time ago.
Cheers DG

[harry]

I am pretty much alone in my view that pipeman was also the man seen by Brown in the company of Stride,and that he is the more likely person to have killed her.The incident with BS and Schwartz departure would have taken but a few minutes(2-5),and supposing that BS departed,then pipeman(Brown's man)could have joined her at the yard entrance.Sensing she had nothing to fear from him,she would be open to a suggestion to step into the yard.A short while for sight to get adjusted to the darker conditions,consoling her,and he was ready to act.Takes care of the non sighting by Mortimer,her being unprepared,and the time creeping to the arrival of Diemschutz.Did she know him?Probably.