Jack McCarthy speech on Dorset Street

[c.d.]

But why mutilate Kelly to that extent?

My post to R.D. was tongue in cheek, John. Guess that got lost in the shuffle.

c.d.

[John Wheat]

My post to R.D. was tongue in cheek, John. Guess that got lost in the shuffle.

c.d.

Hi c.d. I was just posing the question really. Maybe it's for R.D. to answer as its his theoretical scenario.

Cheers John

[Scott Nelson]

No-one knows for sure if John McCarthy had a second (or even a third home) elsewhere before 1911. His associate John Cooney undoubtedly had a second home in Hastings, but he only stayed there some of the time and when the Cooney family ran the Weaver's Arms in Hanbury Street they could be found there.

There is plenty of evidence to support John McCarthy's regular presence both in Spitalfields and in Dorset Street itself up until around 1911. There's every reason to believe he was wealthier than generally supposed, and he certainly had extremely wealthy friends.

Yes, but would he have chosen to live with his wife and daughters at #27 Dorset if he didn't have to? And wouldn't it also have been safer for him and his family if the sporting mob didn't know his actual living address?

Why would McCarthy have been tasked with collecting rents (via Bowyer) in Miller's Court if he didn't own it? All he would have been interested in, and had time for, was his grocery business. Maybe the other John McCarthy, who did live there, was responsible for collecting rents for the actual owner.

[The Rookie Detective]

My post to R.D. was tongue in cheek, John. Guess that got lost in the shuffle.

c.d.

I know it was tongue and cheek, I was just running with it, haha!

[seanr]

Yes, but would he have chosen to live with his wife and daughters at #27 Dorset if he didn't have to? And wouldn't it also have been safer for him and his family if the sporting mob didn't know his actual living address?

I don’t know why he’d have had any reason to fear for his safety from the sporting mob? - he seems to have held in high esteem by them; right up until his, perhaps Bernard Dillon enforced, retirement from the Ring boxing club.

Why would McCarthy have been tasked with collecting rents (via Bowyer) in Miller's Court if he didn't own it? All he would have been interested in, and had time for, was his grocery business. Maybe the other John McCarthy, who did live there, was responsible for collecting rents for the actual owner.

McCarthy was not tasked with collecting rents. McCarthy, the owner, tasked his employee Bowyer to collect rents.

Here’s a yarn from 1901, detailing how popular sport Jack McCarthy invited a crowd of sportsmen from a pub in Hanbury Street to his residence, in 1901.

AN EAST END SMOKER

Away down East it is a case of "where I lead they follow"; and last Tuesday evening Alf Grizzard, the human orchestra, staged a special smoking concert at the Black Swan, Hanbury-street.

He asked the most popular sport in London - Jack McCarthy. of course - to take the chair; and when Jack consented a packed house was certain. Members of the Beaufort, Albert, Netherland and various other clubs turned up in large numbers; and "Drink round, me boys, drink round" assumed the presidency, amidst loud applause, being assisted by Mark Levy, Dicky Smith, Bill Chaplin, Fred Lloyd, Ralph Hart and Rube Michaels.

The instrumental melody was under the direction of Professor Francis Drake; and he played many selections, to the great joy of the assembly. From 8 o'clock, when the fun started, it waxed gradually faster and more furious, until the extension terminated at 2 o'clock. Then all adjourned to McCarthy's palatial residence, when a few dozen bottles of wine were put away.

Mark Levy made a tine speech, extolling the memory of the late Charley Smith, of the Oxford and Cambridge Club; and Charley, jun., replied in a few heartfelt words. Steve McCarthy, the well-known music-hall vocalist, sang one of his famous songs; and he was obliged to sing four encores. Old Jack gave three extempore songs, mentioning everybody round the chairman's table, and including the representative of THE MIRROR OF LIFE. Among the many artists who obliged were Harry Warner; Hal Kendall, the coming rage of London; Mark Levy, Harry Lisbon, Sam Williams, Joe Jacobs. C. Pastor, Charles Preston, Georgie Bendon. Bill Cole, Ted Murrell, Bill Grizzard, Fred Madlin, Tom Blanche, Harry Cassicar, Fred Collins and Alf Grizzard.

Among those present there were noticed Georgie Smith, Tom Sullivan, Johnny Cooney, Georgie Bendon, John Compty, Jack Abratams, Barney Jacobs (Pudding), Young Lawyer, Joe Usterman, Harry Levy, Shamus McCarthy, Andrew Stevens, Dan Lowry, Snarley and Johnny Jacobs.

McCarthy’s residence, is somewhere close to Hanbury Street, and was described as palatial. It must have been large enough to comfortably accommodate the list of gentlemen mentioned here. Steve McCarthy, the noted Music Hall vocalist also gave a performance.

Perhaps this was all on the behalf of a little known grocer who can’t even be found in the 1901 census. Rather than the grocer, lodging house keeper and sportsman who can be found there consistently in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses, as well as multiple other attestations as to his residency at 27 Dorset Street. Just a single piece of evidence for his residency elsewhere or even the attempt to find such evidence would lift your argument above the farcical. Whilst it continues as nothing more than a simple contradiction of every single piece of evidence with regard to the sportsman Jack McCarthy, the argument cannot be taken seriously.

[Scott Nelson]

McCarthy was not tasked with collecting rents. McCarthy, the owner, tasked his employee Bowyer to collect rents.

McCarthy didn't own Millers Court, Abraham Barnett did. McCarthy also didn't own #27 Dorset St. He just leased it for his grocer's business.

So where was this "palatial residence" of McCarthy's? The upper two floors of #27? What about his wife and family, a couple of servants and one or two other families who likely stayed in a couple of the upper floor rooms? Was there room for everyone?

If McCarthy continued to live with his family at #27 for years, do you think the family liked it? Do you think the daughters ever got scared of the area? Wouldn't McCarthy have wanted better accommodations for the upbringing and safety of his children?

"Just a single piece of evidence for his residency elsewhere or even the attempt to find such evidence would lift your argument above the farcical. Whilst it continues as nothing more than a simple contradiction of every single piece of evidence with regard to the sportsman Jack McCarthy, the argument cannot be taken seriously."

Then just ignore it like your cohort Gary Barnett does. You'd never consider it possible that McCarthy might have made every effort to provide fictitious "attestations" about his family's residence there because it doesn't fit your black and white perceptions of how history is supposed to work. As I've already said, McCarthy likely lived elsewhere under an alias while claiming #27 Dorset St. as a family residence for voting controls and protection from the mob.

"Perhaps this was all on the behalf of a little known grocer who can’t even be found in the 1901 census."

You mean the other John McCarthy -- the guy born in Spitalfields and described in the 1891 census as a "General Shop Keeper"? He's likely the guy who was interviewed by Abberline and showed up at Mary Kelly's inquest

[seanr]

Then just ignore it like your cohort Gary Barnett does. You'd never consider it possible that McCarthy might have made every effort to provide fictitious "attestations" about his family's residence there because it doesn't fit your black and white perceptions of how history is supposed to work. As I've already said, McCarthy likely lived elsewhere under an alias while claiming #27 Dorset St. as a family residence for voting controls and protection from the mob.

I'm simply asking for some evidence. Got any?

"Perhaps this was all on the behalf of a little known grocer who can’t even be found in the 1901 census."

You mean the other John McCarthy -- the guy born in Spitalfields and described in the 1891 census as a "General Shop Keeper"? He's likely the guy who was interviewed by Abberline and showed up at Mary Kelly's inquest

We have in existence a sketch of the man who spoke at the inquest and a photograph of the boxing promoter, grocer and lodging house keeper which was published in the Mirror of Life and Boxing World. They look similar.
The police in 1888, told the press that the John McCarthy who was a witness to the days events, had recently won a cup for donations to the hospitals. The boxing promoter had won a cup for donations to the hospitals in the years before. The funds were raised by promoting a boxing event.
John McCarthy, born in Dieppe and described as grocer and lodging house keeper is consistently at 27 Dorset Street in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census.
Steve McCarthy gave his address as 27 Dorset Street on his marriage to Marie Kendall in 1895.
Multiple references to John (and Jack) McCarthy of Dorset Street in the boxing press.
Attestations of John McCarthy of Dorset Street regularly attending events at the Blue Coat Boy in Dorset Street. Appearances in pubs in Shoreditch, Spitalfields and Aldgate over the years which show him as active in the local community.
There's an impressive weight of evidence for this John McCarthy being the man at the 1888 inquest.

On the other hand, for your guy there's a single entry in the 1891 census. Nothing connecting him to lodging houses or collecting rents, as he job is a shopkeeper. Nothing that can place him in Dorset Street prior to 1891.

It's wrong to accuse others of ignoring your claim. Evidence, please.

[Indian Harry]

This was an era before the Krays, but essentially McCarthy was one of the top Irish mobsters in the East End at the time.

Kelly was likely used as an asset and it would seem possible that she was used to entertain higher end clients; Mccarthy acting as a facilitator to those who wanted the seediness but without the publicity.

I've heard this line of reasoning before... but I think the theories of McCarthy being an underground figure are rooted in modern day speculations. I don't think there is any evidence from the period that supports this theory. If I am wrong, I would be happy to see the 'receipts'.

Forgive me, but I don't think Kelly and her pitiful little room are well suited to higher end clients.

[Indian Harry]

But I think he and his family would have actually lived elsewhere under a different name (possibly the wife's maiden name, Stevens?) to avoid voting conflicts, and to avoid the sporting mobs he was associated with. The main issue with his residence there is that it was such a bad place to bring up his daughters, and yet he supposedly still chose to live there for some years after the murder of Mary Kelly in a room only a few feet across from no. 27. If he actually raised his family there, his wife and daughters must have had nerves of steel. But McCarthy could afford to live in a better area and undoubtedly did.

It's not unheard of for business owners to live at the site of their businesses. In the late 80s my Dad sold our house and bought some older row houses, 6 units in all. We moved into one of the units and continued to live there until he sold the property.

If I am not mistaken Mrs. McCarthy would work at the Chandler shop into the wee hours of the morning... and when Bowyer discovered the body it is my impression that the McCarthy family were on-site. Afterall I think it was McCarthy's young son that ran to the police station. That tells me they probably lived there.

[The Rookie Detective]

I've heard this line of reasoning before... but I think the theories of McCarthy being an underground figure are rooted in modern day speculations. I don't think there is any evidence from the period that supports this theory. If I am wrong, I would be happy to see the 'receipts'.

Forgive me, but I don't think Kelly and her pitiful little room are well suited to higher end clients.

I agree to an extent, but higher end clients like Actors, Policemen, Barristers, Pugilists, Clerks etc... are where I would place Kelly's clientele.

The likes of lunatics like Kosminski, Cutbush, Levy, and Hyams were better suited to street walkers.

Kelly doesn't appear to have been a street walker; hence why she was being kept by Mccarthy.

There's only a handful of reasons why a man like Mccarthy would allow one of his rooms to run up a debt.

There is a tantalising clue regarding the idea that Kelly owed Mccarthy money


It's also interesting to note that there was a particular trend at the time, for men from the middle classes (from the West End) who actively sought the seedier side of life, by choosing to deliberately "slum it."

Men of social status would deliberately wander into the East End slums looking for sex with a prostitute.

I believe it's precisely these kind of men that Mccarthy provided a service for, and thus facilitated their needs through the use of assets like Kelly.


Mccarthy's shop was IMO a front for ongoing criminal activities.

And when we consider that the Jew; Isaac Lewis Jacob; the man seen close to McKenzie's murder site just after the discovery of her body, stated to the police officer that he was on his way to the Mccarthy's shop in Dorset Street.

This provides us with a direct link between McKenzie's murder location, with Mccarthy's shop in Dorset Street; just yards from where Kelly was butchered 9 months earlier.

.

[Indian Harry]

There's only a handful of reasons why a man like Mccarthy would allow one of his rooms to run up a debt.

There is a tantalising clue regarding the idea that Kelly owed Mccarthy money

.

One reason, could be his charitable nature... and it could be a case of a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Prior to her recent hard times she had a good record of paying her rent... so maybe he was willing to weather the storm to some extent.... or maybe you are right... there's probably no way of really knowing.

[c.d.]

I agree, a bird in the hand. You have to consider the pool of people he would be renting to. A lot of them had drinking problems and spotty employment histories and did not have a lot of money. So he kicks out Kelly who paid her rent albeit late and in return could get someone who does not pay at all, skips out and leaves him flat.

How many people who rented in Whitechapel were behind on their rent at any given time? I have to imagine it was pretty much par for the course.

And while I have doubts about his charitable nature I would not be surprised to find out there was a little quid pro quo sometimes. Her favors in exchange for rent.

I really don't see it as a complicated issue or any sort of major clue.

c.d.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Forgive me for asking the question for I genuinely don't know the complete answer, but is there any evidence apart from Mccarthy himself that Mary owed the rent she was supposed to ?
Or was he a chancer who hoped to get some money back, from one of Mary's relatives who may have come forward , say for instance for the broken door, maybe the window pane or maybe for the general cleaning of the flat of the bloodstains etc

Regards Darryl