Jack McCarthy speech on Dorset Street

[c.d.]

But why mutilate Kelly to that extent?

My post to R.D. was tongue in cheek, John. Guess that got lost in the shuffle.

c.d.

[John Wheat]

My post to R.D. was tongue in cheek, John. Guess that got lost in the shuffle.

c.d.

Hi c.d. I was just posing the question really. Maybe it's for R.D. to answer as its his theoretical scenario.

Cheers John

[Scott Nelson]

No-one knows for sure if John McCarthy had a second (or even a third home) elsewhere before 1911. His associate John Cooney undoubtedly had a second home in Hastings, but he only stayed there some of the time and when the Cooney family ran the Weaver's Arms in Hanbury Street they could be found there.

There is plenty of evidence to support John McCarthy's regular presence both in Spitalfields and in Dorset Street itself up until around 1911. There's every reason to believe he was wealthier than generally supposed, and he certainly had extremely wealthy friends.

Yes, but would he have chosen to live with his wife and daughters at #27 Dorset if he didn't have to? And wouldn't it also have been safer for him and his family if the sporting mob didn't know his actual living address?

Why would McCarthy have been tasked with collecting rents (via Bowyer) in Miller's Court if he didn't own it? All he would have been interested in, and had time for, was his grocery business. Maybe the other John McCarthy, who did live there, was responsible for collecting rents for the actual owner.

[The Rookie Detective]

My post to R.D. was tongue in cheek, John. Guess that got lost in the shuffle.

c.d.

I know it was tongue and cheek, I was just running with it, haha!

[seanr]

Yes, but would he have chosen to live with his wife and daughters at #27 Dorset if he didn't have to? And wouldn't it also have been safer for him and his family if the sporting mob didn't know his actual living address?

I don’t know why he’d have had any reason to fear for his safety from the sporting mob? - he seems to have held in high esteem by them; right up until his, perhaps Bernard Dillon enforced, retirement from the Ring boxing club.

Why would McCarthy have been tasked with collecting rents (via Bowyer) in Miller's Court if he didn't own it? All he would have been interested in, and had time for, was his grocery business. Maybe the other John McCarthy, who did live there, was responsible for collecting rents for the actual owner.

McCarthy was not tasked with collecting rents. McCarthy, the owner, tasked his employee Bowyer to collect rents.

Here’s a yarn from 1901, detailing how popular sport Jack McCarthy invited a crowd of sportsmen from a pub in Hanbury Street to his residence, in 1901.

AN EAST END SMOKER

Away down East it is a case of "where I lead they follow"; and last Tuesday evening Alf Grizzard, the human orchestra, staged a special smoking concert at the Black Swan, Hanbury-street.

He asked the most popular sport in London - Jack McCarthy. of course - to take the chair; and when Jack consented a packed house was certain. Members of the Beaufort, Albert, Netherland and various other clubs turned up in large numbers; and "Drink round, me boys, drink round" assumed the presidency, amidst loud applause, being assisted by Mark Levy, Dicky Smith, Bill Chaplin, Fred Lloyd, Ralph Hart and Rube Michaels.

The instrumental melody was under the direction of Professor Francis Drake; and he played many selections, to the great joy of the assembly. From 8 o'clock, when the fun started, it waxed gradually faster and more furious, until the extension terminated at 2 o'clock. Then all adjourned to McCarthy's palatial residence, when a few dozen bottles of wine were put away.

Mark Levy made a tine speech, extolling the memory of the late Charley Smith, of the Oxford and Cambridge Club; and Charley, jun., replied in a few heartfelt words. Steve McCarthy, the well-known music-hall vocalist, sang one of his famous songs; and he was obliged to sing four encores. Old Jack gave three extempore songs, mentioning everybody round the chairman's table, and including the representative of THE MIRROR OF LIFE. Among the many artists who obliged were Harry Warner; Hal Kendall, the coming rage of London; Mark Levy, Harry Lisbon, Sam Williams, Joe Jacobs. C. Pastor, Charles Preston, Georgie Bendon. Bill Cole, Ted Murrell, Bill Grizzard, Fred Madlin, Tom Blanche, Harry Cassicar, Fred Collins and Alf Grizzard.

Among those present there were noticed Georgie Smith, Tom Sullivan, Johnny Cooney, Georgie Bendon, John Compty, Jack Abratams, Barney Jacobs (Pudding), Young Lawyer, Joe Usterman, Harry Levy, Shamus McCarthy, Andrew Stevens, Dan Lowry, Snarley and Johnny Jacobs.

McCarthy’s residence, is somewhere close to Hanbury Street, and was described as palatial. It must have been large enough to comfortably accommodate the list of gentlemen mentioned here. Steve McCarthy, the noted Music Hall vocalist also gave a performance.

Perhaps this was all on the behalf of a little known grocer who can’t even be found in the 1901 census. Rather than the grocer, lodging house keeper and sportsman who can be found there consistently in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses, as well as multiple other attestations as to his residency at 27 Dorset Street. Just a single piece of evidence for his residency elsewhere or even the attempt to find such evidence would lift your argument above the farcical. Whilst it continues as nothing more than a simple contradiction of every single piece of evidence with regard to the sportsman Jack McCarthy, the argument cannot be taken seriously.