Who Was Anderson’s Witness?

[caz]

I didn’t deliberately miss out the location Trevor because it’s the point that I’ve made myself as the one that causes me most doubt.

I didn’t mention the lack of other wounds because there is a plausible, possible reason for this.

Mitre Square is only just over the Whitechapel Road but it’s the only murder that crosses Houndsditch so is that a reason to dismiss Eddowes? We’re only talking about 5 murders here so to dismiss Stride on this point is at best clutching at straws IMO.

As to your final point, I’ve never consulted the 1888 Ladybird Practical Handbook On How To Murder A Woman so I don’t see how you could describe it as you do. I don't how many throat-cuttings occurred in that period but I have a feeling that someone has posted figures. The point is though is that it’s more specific than that, it was a woman who engaged in prostitution killed on the street (in a yard) then we also have to add the fact that this was during a period other murders of the same class of woman, all within a small area. Then of course we can add that we know for an absolute fact that the killer was out on that night.

The points toward Stride being a ripper victim outweigh the points against. In fact there are only 2 valid objections IMO. The lack,of mutilations and the fact that the location appeared to be such a risky one. The others can be dismissed. Plus I have to add that the ‘amount’ of points ahead was grossly exaggerated by you splitting points into more than one point to increase the size of the list.

Hi Herlock,

I would only add here that if the ripper would have had time to mutilate Stride in that location and get safely away, that would have applied equally to A.N.Other, who could have made it look like 'another' mutilation murder - good enough to fool a detective of Trevor's calibre in any case - merely by slashing at her abdomen.

The irony is that if Stride's killer was not the ripper, and had some personal motive for doing her in, he'd have had every incentive to make this look like the bloodthirsty 'fiend' was at it again, while the ripper would have had the luxury of pleasing himself and simply pushing off to a safer location if he found himself in a risky one.

But if there was simply no time to lose after that single cut to the throat, it would tell us nothing about who had to get out of there fast to avoid discovery.

Love,

Caz
X

[GBinOz]

Well said Tristan, but said while I was composing my previous post.

In 1908 Anderson was keen on Barnett as a suspect. In his memoirs he switched to the Polish Jew theory, which he likey based on MM's memorandum, but by that time MM had dropped Kosminski and Ostog in favour of Druitt. The definition of the "witness" was that he was the only person to get a good look at the ripper and the sighting was at the Eddows murder site. The person named by the actual witness was Grainger, which points to it being Lawende, or maybe Levy. But Lawende, Harris and Levy didn't see Eddows face so there was no realistic chance of a conviction on the basis that they saw a man and woman talking near the murder site shortly before the body was found.

On subject - I think Anderson's witness was a confused amalgamation of memories decades after the event. I think the actual witness, if there was one, was either Watkins or White.

Cheers, George

[caz]

I have never understood the alleged relevance of Fanny Mortimer's evidence. It isn't absolutely certain from the newspaper reports what clear evidence she has to offer about what was seen and when. We assume she made a statement to the police, and that would have been much clearer, but we will never know what she actually reported to them.

We do know that sometime, probably around 12. 45 am, Stride entered Dutfield's Yard, she may have been alone or accompanied, and she may have done so voluntarily, or by force, we don't know. But it happened, and Fanny M didn't see it. This is also about the time that Schwartz says he passed by, so if Fanny didn't see Stride enter the yard, then she would be unable to offer evidence about Schwartz either.

The most Fanny M might have been able to offer the police would have been a possible guide to the time when nothing important was happening.

That is an excellent point, DW.

If Fanny never saw Stride, who was most definitely on Berner Street and subsequently in the yard where she was killed, why is anyone suspicious that Fanny didn't see Schwartz either, or the brief incident he described?

The strongest bit of Fanny's testimony is that she heard a pony and cart after retiring for the night and remarked on it to her husband, before going back out to see what the commotion was. That fits neatly with Louis D's account so I see no need to doubt either on that part of the night's events.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

I have never understood the alleged relevance of Fanny Mortimer's evidence. It isn't absolutely certain from the newspaper reports what clear evidence she has to offer about what was seen and when. We assume she made a statement to the police, and that would have been much clearer, but we will never know what she actually reported to them.

We do know that sometime, probably around 12. 45 am, Stride entered Dutfield's Yard, she may have been alone or accompanied, and she may have done so voluntarily, or by force, we don't know. But it happened, and Fanny M didn't see it. This is also about the time that Schwartz says he passed by, so if Fanny didn't see Stride enter the yard, then she would be unable to offer evidence about Schwartz either.

The most Fanny M might have been able to offer the police would have been a possible guide to the time when nothing important was happening.

bingo dr
all she did was make some poor cigarrete schleppers life miserable for a while. lol

[Herlock Sholmes]

That is an excellent point, DW.

If Fanny never saw Stride, who was most definitely on Berner Street and subsequently in the yard where she was killed, why is anyone suspicious that Fanny didn't see Schwartz either, or the brief incident he described?

The strongest bit of Fanny's testimony is that she heard a pony and cart after retiring for the night and remarked on it to her husband, before going back out to see what the commotion was. That fits neatly with Louis D's account so I see no need to doubt either on that part of the night's events.

Love,

Caz
X

Last point about Stride (sorry Tristan)

Agreed Caz, this is an excellent and often ignored point by Doctored Whatsit. Why isn’t Michael concerned that she didn’t see Stride either and it can’t be disputed that she was there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have never understood the alleged relevance of Fanny Mortimer's evidence. It isn't absolutely certain from the newspaper reports what clear evidence she has to offer about what was seen and when. We assume she made a statement to the police, and that would have been much clearer, but we will never know what she actually reported to them.

We do know that sometime, probably around 12. 45 am, Stride entered Dutfield's Yard, she may have been alone or accompanied, and she may have done so voluntarily, or by force, we don't know. But it happened, and Fanny M didn't see it. This is also about the time that Schwartz says he passed by, so if Fanny didn't see Stride enter the yard, then she would be unable to offer evidence about Schwartz either.

The most Fanny M might have been able to offer the police would have been a possible guide to the time when nothing important was happening.

Excellent point DW for which you have the ‘one time only’ right to say “Elementary my dear Sholmes.”

[Losmandris]

Well said Tristan, but said while I was composing my previous post.

In 1908 Anderson was keen on Barnett as a suspect. In his memoirs he switched to the Polish Jew theory, which he likey based on MM's memorandum, but by that time MM had dropped Kosminski and Ostog in favour of Druitt. The definition of the "witness" was that he was the only person to get a good look at the ripper and the sighting was at the Eddows murder site. The person named by the actual witness was Grainger, which points to it being Lawende, or maybe Levy. But Lawende, Harris and Levy didn't see Eddows face so there was no realistic chance of a conviction on the basis that they saw a man and woman talking near the murder site shortly before the body was found.

On subject - I think Anderson's witness was a confused amalgamation of memories decades after the event. I think the actual witness, if there was one, was either Watkins or White.

Cheers, George

I kind of have trouble thinking that the identification took place at all or if it did it was a damp squib. Surely if it had been significant, there would be more about it, somewhere? A report or something? Of course I don't buy any of this official cover up stuff. Evidence of it it destroyed during the war? Maybe? But I think if JtR had been id'ed there would have been more of a song and dance about it.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Excellent point DW for which you have the ‘one time only’ right to say “Elementary my dear Sholmes.”

Elementary my dear Sholmes!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Elementary my dear Sholmes!

[John Malcolm]

Can't seem to delete my post, so I'll just say that I have nothing to say.

[Joshua Rogan]

Of course Fanny Mortimer told everyone that she saw nothing, it's clear she was the real killer. Her name practically screams "death to prostitutes". Hell, she even left her initials in Kelly's room.

[Joshua Rogan]

On subject - I think Anderson's witness was a confused amalgamation of memories decades after the event.

Quite probably, and it would be no surprise - he was hardly Johnny on the spot during the killings, after all.
I don't think he took up his post until the day after Polly was murdered, and before the next he went on sick leave to the continent for a month, returning only after the Double Event.

[Abby Normal]

Of course Fanny Mortimer told everyone that she saw nothing, it's clear she was the real killer. Her name practically screams "death to prostitutes". Hell, she even left her initials in Kelly's room.

lol!!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Of course Fanny Mortimer told everyone that she saw nothing, it's clear she was the real killer. Her name practically screams "death to prostitutes". Hell, she even left her initials in Kelly's room.

I don’t recall that one being one of the ‘old established theories’ Joshua.

[Joshua Rogan]

I don’t recall that one being one of the ‘old established theories’ Joshua.

You need to think outside the box.....