If Schwartz Lied ...

[GBinOz]

so one club member pursuing another? then why wouldnt parcelman just tell the cops on schwartz?

That would seem to be the logical thing to do, but remember that Parcelman was aware that he had been observed by many potential witnesses as being with Stride throughout the night and that he was in fact in the yard when the murder took place. I would think that he weighed his chances of being convicted of the murder and thought that he would be on a hanging to nothing bet by presenting himself to the police as Strides companion, particularly after Schwartz disclosed his version of events and the possibility that Schwartz may identify Parcelman as the BSM in his story.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

You are seeing things as ever in terms of a mystery instead of seeing things in terms of estimates which can be slightly out.

First pass 12.30-12.35 approx- Beat takes 30 minutes approx - Second pass 1.05 approx (12.35 + 30 mins)

So if Lamb got to the yard at 1.05 approx we have Smith arriving just after.

All that we have to do is to do what your are rigorously reluctant to do. Allow for, a) a margin for error on estimated times and, b) make a a very small allowance for a difference in clocks.

We can’t suspect Smith or Lamb of lying. We know that Lamb didn’t have a watch and was estimating. We can infer that Smith didn’t own a watch but we can’t assume how he based his time. He doesn’t mention seeing the same clock that Diemschutz saw so it’s possible that he’d seen a clock earlier on his route and was judging by that or that he believed that he’d first passed nearer to 12.30 and he was just adding 30 minutes.

I am having a little difficulty in accepting the concept of continuos estimations by police officers who knew the locations of clocks, such as the Harris clock, and their deliberately averting their eyes to ensure that they do not corrupt their estimates with an actual clock time. I would have thought that Smith and Lamb would have welcomed the opportunity to have calibrated their estimates by observing every clock they passed to avoid being caught out should a superior officer question them on the matter, particularly in a murder case. I am struggling to see the need for mathematical contortions in calculating times when there is a clock right in front of you. These officers were professionals and walked their beat every day. They would have had an accurate idea of the time and an idea of any calibration differences between the clocks on their beats.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

I was just doing a little late night trawling and came across this fron the Morning Advertister 2 Oct:

It has been definitely ascertained that Mrs. Stride's usual haunts at night were the Commercial-road East, Stratford, and Bow, the latter especially

I seem to recall that Bow was the haunt of ripper suspect William Bury - for what ever that's worth?

Late update - Bury too short to be BSM.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am having a little difficulty in accepting the concept of continuos estimations by police officers who knew the locations of clocks, such as the Harris clock, and their deliberately averting their eyes to ensure that they do not corrupt their estimates with an actual clock time. I would have thought that Smith and Lamb would have welcomed the opportunity to have calibrated their estimates by observing every clock they passed to avoid being caught out should a superior officer question them on the matter, particularly in a murder case. I am struggling to see the need for mathematical contortions in calculating times when there is a clock right in front of you. These officers were professionals and walked their beat every day. They would have had an accurate idea of the time and an idea of any calibration differences between the clocks on their beats.

Cheers, George

It’s not a case of averting eyes George it’s a case of being human. Humans are not always entirely diligent or without fault. Police officers included.

We know that Lamb was approached in Commercial Road: “About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell,” So he’s clearly estimating, but he doesn’t inform us as to how he arrived at that time. When he got there he sent a colleague for a Doctor.

Edward Johnston said that an officer got to his door at: “About five or ten minutes past 1.” Notice that even Johnston uses ‘about’ so he’s estimating too despite the fact that he undoubtedly would have owned a watch. Then after he’d arrived at the yard: “As soon as Dr. Blackwell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1.16. I was there three or four minutes before Dr. Blackwell.”

And so we can see that Johnston arrived at around 1.12/1.13.

So we can see that, using a very conservative use of approximations, Lamb was initially approached at around 1.05 and arrived at the yard around 1.06. He sends a Constable who arrived at Johnston’s house close to 1.10. Johnston dashes straight to Berner Street and arrives around 1.12/1.13. Then Dr Blackwell arrived 3 or 4 minutes later. These times align perfectly.

Smith arrived at the yard just after Lamb. He had no reason lie. So he must have gone into Berner Street just after 1.05.

There’s no need for us to continually try and break our backs on this issue. It’s very simple. The stumbling block for some appears to be this sentence attributed to PC Smith at the Inquest: “At 1 o’clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.”

Now of course we can look at various phrases in this case and apply differing interpretations to them cautiously but again we have to consider wording (and also the fact that these are Press transcriptions of course) So the above sentence might simply have meant that he went into Berner Street at what he estimated was 1.00 because that was the time that his round usually took him into Berner Street? I’m only suggesting a possibility.

….

When all is said and done….

Lamb’s time ties in with Johnston and Blackwell (and therefore Blackwell’s watch) so we know that he went into Berner Street around 1.05. We also know that Smith arrived after him. Therefore PC Smith must have gone into Berner Street just after 1.05. I just don’t see how this can be disputed. Take 30 minutes (the duration of his round) from 1.05 and what time do we get? 12.35 the time that he said that he last passed. Why do we keep working so hard to try and find non-existent cracks in this? We just need to allow for the fact that we can’t take an estimated time as an exact time.

There are no timing issues of any real importance.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
Thank you for your welcome.
There is some considerable disagreement about the grapes and I can't really see how it impacts on the final moments of the tragic end of Liz Stride.

Hello George.
Yes, somehow Packer has been landed with blame for the debate over whether grapes were seen in Stride's hand or not. He really had nothing to do with that argument.

The police couldn't use Packer as a witness because he was not sure if he saw Stride between 11:00-11:30, or 12:00-12:30, they never questioned him seeing the suspect. In fact they continued to search for that same suspect well into November.

What Packer apparently did not know, at the time he gave his statement, was that Stride had been seen at the Bricklayer's Arms at 11:00pm, which means his sighting had to be the 12:00-12:30 window.
As Stride & the man who bought those grapes stood outside the club, crossing over to stand opposite, between 12:00-12:30, it only stands to reason in my view that the man seen by PC Smith, standing with Stride & carrying a parcel, had to be this same man.

Tom needed to introduce someone from the club into this drama somehow, so he posed (or another poster?) that Parcel-man was the Secretary William Wess. But that theory fell apart when it was pointed out that Wess left the club by the front door at 12:15, along with his brother & two others.
I know it has been "suggested" that the size of the package was similar to a pamphlet sheet printed by the club.
We have yet to see evidence of this, might I assume you have seen this evidence?

Why is it theorists choose to take PC Smith's estimate of the size of the package as 'certain', as if he had measured it, when he cannot possibly have?
He was guessing, so he guessed wrong, most people do guess wrong. Yet, theorists can't allow him to be wrong on the package size, but do want him to be wrong on the estimate time he gave 12:30-12:35.

If you have a male in Stride's company carrying a package near the club about 12:30, and you have a PC who saw a male, in Stride's company carrying a parcel, about 12:30.
What is the obvious conclusion?

Why introduce a third person?

[Dickere]

Hi Abby,
Thank you for your welcome.

Parcelman is the man who Smith saw with Stride between 12:30 and 12:35. The name Parcelman comes from the fact that he was carrying a parcel about 18" long and covered in (news)paper. It has been suggested by another poster (Tom Westcott I think) that the size indicated that they may have been pro-socialist pamphlets.

Cheers, George

Or maybe, as Herlock referred to recently, it was a penguin. The size fits.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello George.
Yes, somehow Packer has been landed with blame for the debate over whether grapes were seen in Stride's hand or not. He really had nothing to do with that argument.

The police couldn't use Packer as a witness because he was not sure if he saw Stride between 11:00-11:30, or 12:00-12:30, they never questioned him seeing the suspect. In fact they continued to search for that same suspect well into November.

What Packer apparently did not know, at the time he gave his statement, was that Stride had been seen at the Bricklayer's Arms at 11:00pm, which means his sighting had to be the 12:00-12:30 window.
As Stride & the man who bought those grapes stood outside the club, crossing over to stand opposite, between 12:00-12:30, it only stands to reason in my view that the man seen by PC Smith, standing with Stride & carrying a parcel, had to be this same man.

Tom needed to introduce someone from the club into this drama somehow, so he posed (or another poster?) that Parcel-man was the Secretary William Wess. But that theory fell apart when it was pointed out that Wess left the club by the front door at 12:15, along with his brother & two others.
I know it has been "suggested" that the size of the package was similar to a pamphlet sheet printed by the club.
We have yet to see evidence of this, might I assume you have seen this evidence?

Why is it theorists choose to take PC Smith's estimate of the size of the package as 'certain', as if he had measured it, when he cannot possibly have?
He was guessing, so he guessed wrong, most people do guess wrong. Yet, theorists can't allow him to be wrong on the package size, but do want him to be wrong on the estimate time he gave 12:30-12:35.

If you have a male in Stride's company carrying a package near the club about 12:30, and you have a PC who saw a male, in Stride's company carrying a parcel, about 12:30.
What is the obvious conclusion?

Why introduce a third person?

An important point Wick. This was an estimate made from a distance.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So we can see that, using a very conservative use of approximations, Lamb was initially approached at around 1.05 and arrived at the yard around 1.06.

That would give Eagle barely 3½ minutes to make it to Leman street police station. He had already been running around.

It would also mean Smith not arriving until at least 1:09. That would mean Fanny heard his measured, heavy tramp at shortly before a quarter to one o'clock.

Smith arrived at the yard just after Lamb. He had no reason lie.

No one has suggested that Smith might have lied, so why mention it?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What Packer apparently did not know, at the time he gave his statement, was that Stride had been seen at the Bricklayer's Arms at 11:00pm, which means his sighting had to be the 12:00-12:30 window.
As Stride & the man who bought those grapes stood outside the club, crossing over to stand opposite, between 12:00-12:30, it only stands to reason in my view that the man seen by PC Smith, standing with Stride & carrying a parcel, had to be this same man.

Here are some possible obstacles to the notion that Stride and the grapes customer stood across from the club, starting between 12:00-12:30.

Wess did not recall seeing a man and woman in that location, when he left the club at about 12:15.

C: Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?
W: I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.

The earlier couple, who seem to have been together for about half an hour, may have been walking along Berner street in the 12:20-12:25 period.

I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then. I met my young man at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate.

The we have Fanny Mortimer, claiming to have been at her doorstep as of 12:30.

Another issue with grapes buying man being parcel man, is that PC Smith does not seem to have noticed Stride and parcel man until turning around to go back up Berner street. It is as though Stride and companion had almost followed him down the street, before stopping where Smith passed them.

Also worth noting is how much walking about Stride seems to have done. Marshall sees her walking toward Ellen street, about ¾ hour after she left the pub on Settles street. About ¾ hour further on, she seems to have walked at least part way down Berner street, from the north. Why the big loop?

[drstrange169]

Hello George,

Some anomalies in your timeline.

Pipeman came from the beer house at the corner, not the club.
Smith doesn't recognise parcel man amongst the club members.
Brown sees Mrs Stride on the corner with another man at the time you have her being killed.
Florence Letchford was at her door during the time you have Deimshitz arriving and the the members leaving looking for police.
Lamb was at the fixed point at the end of the shift there, 1:00 a.m.
Smith is never recorded as seeing Harris's clock.

Nobody's time, other than Deimshitz, is synchronised by Harris's clock. ALL times are non synchronised and most are guesswork.

Mrs Stride was seen with four, five if you count Schwartz, different men within the two hours prior to her death, hardly the actions of a romantic.

[GBinOz]

An important point Wick. This was an estimate made from a distance.

Hi Herlock and Wick,

I am happy to accept that Smith's dimensions could be slightly off but I don't believe that a bag of grapes could be mistaken for a long rectangular parcel. I could find myself persuaded that it was socialist pamphlets that he had picked up from the yard rather than about to deliver to the yard, as Smith was the first to notice the parcel.

Police are human, I agree, but they are also trained as observers and I am unpersuaded that they would miss an opportunity to recalibrate there time estimates. Lamb was quoted as saying "about 1 o'clock" by one journalist and by another. The fact fact that the fixed point Constable was still there indicates the latter. The greatest obstacle to our deliberations on these matters is the variations introduced by lazy journalists and the lost of official. But then again, the journalist would have never imagined that there words were going to be constantly re-examined by large numbers of people 130 years after the event.

The Daily Telegraph records Smith's satement at the inquest as " I was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock". This is right in front of the Harris clock. I note that you suggest that "(he) might simply have meant that he went into Berner Street at what he estimated was 1.00 because that was . Is it possible that Diemshitz may have estimated 1 o'clock because that was the time that his round usually took him into Berner Street as reported and when he later attended the inquest decided to improve his testimony with an exact reference to the Harris clock. Smith and Lamb knew they had an incident on thier hands and would have every reason to be calibrating there time. When Diemshitz turned into Berner St it was, at that point, just another night. Sorry guys. I remain unpersuaded that I should believe Diemshhitz over two police constables.

Johnson and Blackwell were using different timepieces to the Harris clock that was available to Diemshitz, Lamb and Smith and we have no way of knowing their syncronicity. By the time comparisons could be made Lamb was again working on estimates. I am unconvinced that Smith would be using beat time mathematics to deduce an estimate when he is standing in front of the Harris clock, but if that method is employed, Smith stated that his round was 25-30 minutes. Take 25-30 minutes from 1:00 and you get 12:30 to 12:35, which is what Smith stated. Estimates have to be based on a benchmark time, not the other way around. I agree that Smith arrived at the yard after Lamb but I am proposing that Lamb's statement about being called "shortly before 1 o'clock" was correct and that he was at the yard, or very close to it, by 1 o'clock when Smith was at the Harris clock corner.

Wick - Why introduce a third person? My opinion at this point in time is that Parcelman and Liz were together for some time and that most of the witness were seeing them with variations in descriptions being attributable to poor lighting - I have read that the a average gaslight street lamp threw about as much light as a modern refrigerator and Berner St had only four street lamps. Witnesses stated that Liz made extra efforts for her night out and at this time I am not prepared to cast Parcelman as the Ripper or as her murderer. The problem then arises, where is he when Liz is murdered? If they were not saying goodnight when Smith saw them then he would have been in the club or the yard - maybe he had to use the toilets?

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Here are some possible obstacles to the notion that Stride and the grapes customer stood across from the club, starting between 12:00-12:30.

Wess did not recall seeing a man and woman in that location, when he left the club at about 12:15.

C: Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?
W: I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.

But if he say's, "I can't recollect", how can you say he saw no-one?

The earlier couple, who seem to have been together for about half an hour, may have been walking along Berner street in the 12:20-12:25 period.

I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then. I met my young man at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate.

She doesn't say there was no-one in Berner street opposite the club.

The we have Fanny Mortimer, claiming to have been at her doorstep as of 12:30.

The London Evening News gave us this account:

"...A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact."

It seems she wasn't there 'from' 12:30, but more like 12:45?
Mortimer only went to her door after she heard PC Smith? walk passed on his beat?

I have not read anything there to counter the claim that Stride was with a man opposite the club.

Another issue with grapes buying man being parcel man, is that PC Smith does not seem to have noticed Stride and parcel man until turning around to go back up Berner street. It is as though Stride and companion had almost followed him down the street, before stopping where Smith passed them.

Packer said that after being served the couple crossed Berner street and stood there for a while, then crossed back to the west side about 12:10-12:15 roughly.
PC smith could have walked down the east side while they stood on the west side, then he noticed them as he walked back up Berner street.
How does this argue against Packer's story?

Also worth noting is how much walking about Stride seems to have done. Marshall sees her walking toward Ellen street, about ¾ hour after she left the pub on Settles street. About ¾ hour further on, she seems to have walked at least part way down Berner street, from the north. Why the big loop?

I don't think Marshall saw Stride, he didn't see her wearing the flower, so likely Marshall saw a different couple.

[GBinOz]

Hello George,

Some anomalies in your timeline.

Pipeman came from the beer house at the corner, not the club.
Yes, I think Schwartz was stepping off the kerb on the opposite side of Fairclogh St when he appeared.
Smith doesn't recognise parcel man amongst the club members.
Parcelman wasn't in the club when Smith was there. Parcelman had left in pursuit of the killer, BSM
Brown sees Mrs Stride on the corner with another man at the time you have her being killed.
Brown's time was based on estimates and his identification was in a poorly lit street. He wasn't even able to say if the man was wearing anything on his head.
Florence Letchford was at her door during the time you have Deimshitz arriving and the the members leaving looking for police.
I need to do some research on her.
Lamb was at the fixed point at the end of the shift there, 1:00 a.m.
Yes, and the fixed point Constable was still there so it must have been before 1:00am. Lamb stated "shortly before 1 o'clock".
Smith is never recorded as seeing Harris's clock.
Smith was trained as a professional observer and the clock was on his beat. It would not be a surprise to me if he used the Harris clock as his benchmark for his beat.

Nobody's time, other than Deimshitz, is synchronised by Harris's clock. ALL times are non synchronised and most are guesswork.

Mrs Stride was seen with four, five if you count Schwartz, different men within the two hours prior to her death, hardly the actions of a romantic.

Hi drstrange,

Diemshitz's statements, that I have thus far located, to the press immediately after his discovery had him referring to his usual time of return of 1 o'clock, except for one that he refers to a clock striking one. Afterwards, at the inquest, he was variously reported referring to the clock in the Baker's shop, the clock in the tobacconist and the clock in the Harris tobacco shop.

I have a fair degree of confidence in time estimates made by medical professionals and police as they know that they may be called on at any time to estimate a time. I have little confidence in time estimates made by people who, at the time, didn't need to know the time and didn't know that at a later time they would be asked to estimate a time that they didn't know they were going to be asked to estimate....if that makes sense?

IMHO, Smith and Lamb were far more likely to have looked at the Harris clock that a man on a cart, tired out after a long day's work and without even the slightest need to know the time other than it was probably the "usual" time.

Identifications made by people with no timepieces just in the ordinary course of their evening on a dark night in a poorly lit street can be tricky. Witnesses stated that Liz had made special efforts regarding her appearance for her night out. Others stated she was a woman of good character. I am pursuaded at this point in time that this night out was recreational rather than occupational.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Herlock and Wick,

I am happy to accept that Smith's dimensions could be slightly off but I don't believe that a bag of grapes could be mistaken for a long rectangular parcel. I could find myself persuaded that it was socialist pamphlets that he had picked up from the yard rather than about to deliver to the yard, as Smith was the first to notice the parcel.

Hi George.
I would sooner believe an estimated dimension can be way off, rather than believe Stride was with two different men, at the same location, dressed similar, and both carrying a parcel, at roughly the same time.
That coincidence is expecting far too much.

Wick - Why introduce a third person? My opinion at this point in time is that Parcelman and Liz were together for some time and that most of the witness were seeing them with variations in descriptions being attributable to poor lighting - I have read that the a average gaslight street lamp threw about as much light as a modern refrigerator and Berner St had only four street lamps. Witnesses stated that Liz made extra efforts for her night out and at this time I am not prepared to cast Parcelman as the Ripper or as her murderer. The problem then arises, where is he when Liz is murdered? If they were not saying goodnight when Smith saw them then he would have been in the club or the yard - maybe he had to use the toilets?

Cheers, George

I do not disagree with anything in that paragraph. It's just that the man she was with at the Bricklayer's Arms, is parcel-man, and he also bought the grapes.
I suspect he was in the shadows of the yard when Schwartz walked bye, this is why Schwartz didn't see him.
BS-man may have seen him, it is this what caused BS-man to accost her, she was acting like a prostitute with a client, and BS-man told her to get away from here, or something similar.

[GBinOz]

I need to correct an error in my post #1631. There were some words dropped out that now appear in bold below:

Police are human, I agree, but they are also trained as observers and I am unpersuaded that they would miss an opportunity to recalibrate there time estimates. Lamb was quoted as saying "about 1 o'clock" by one journalist and "shortly before one" by another.

I am contiuing to have a problem with a popup saying "Invalid server respone - please try again". I've asked Admin but no reply yet. Can anyone help on this problem....please.......anyone??

Cheers, George