If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Lamb was not on a beat

So he was just out on a stroll wandering around aimlessly?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So he was just out on a stroll wandering around aimlessly?

No, he was in on the plot.

DT: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.

Times: I was not on the beat; but I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No, he was in on the plot.

DT: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.

Times: I was not on the beat; but I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called.

Surely he meant that he wasn’t on that particular beat? If wasn’t on FP duty what else could he have been doing?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Surely he meant that he wasn’t on that particular beat? If wasn’t on FP duty what else could he have been doing?

He was on general patrol of Commercial Road. The part of Comm. Rd. he was found at, was part of Smith's beat, but Lamb's patrolling included that section. Not being on a beat meant he did not need to be quite as cognizant of the time.

[Joshua Rogan]

Or perhaps Lamb's beat included part of the north side of commercial road, just as Smith's included part of the south side.

[GBinOz]

Wow. Step away to have dinner and return to a ton of questions.

drstrange - Reid explained fixed point at the inquest: Inspector Reid. - These men are fixed at certain places, so if a person wanted a constable he would not have to go all the way to the station for one.
There woud be little point if they couldn't move from their point if required.
I attibute "about" to lazy journalism rather than uncertainty about time. Lamb was reported elsewhere as "shortly before one". He would have seen the time on the two occasions that he passed the Harris but when he moved from that clock he is using estimates. Smith states he was at the Harris clock corner at one o'clock. We can't know how big that clock was nor how easy it would be to spot a time from a moving vehicle in the carriageway, but Diemshitz was reported initially as using his "usual" time of about one o'clock, and only later did it become exact clock time. He was returning from Crystal Palce so he would have crossed Tower Bridge and come down Commercial Road from the west, which means his view of the clock would have been obscured by the corner of the building.
Brown was computing time from a series of comings and goings and stated that he didn't look at the chandler's clock.
FM was using 1:00 because that is what Diemshitz told her and she worked backwards.

NBFN: Marshall MAY have seen Liz but before Parcelman presented her flowers. Packer said he was laughing about them standing in the rain. Smith said the rain stopped at about 11pm the the grape purchase had to be before that time.
What doesn't gel is the lazy journalism. The casebook account of the inquest has Johnson testifying "On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H"

Herlock: Many thanks for the computer tip - it worked. But when it comes to time you're a hard nut to crack my friend.
Diemshitz moves from usual arrival time to to observing a clock in a window from a moving vehicle after a very long day time. His estimate of Lamb's arrival before the doctor computes to 12:56, which gels with Lamb's "shortly before one" and Smith's "at one" at the corner.
According to Diemshitz, he and Spooner arrive together, but Diemshitz says the police arrived at that very moment and Spooner says he had to wait 5 minutes.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I can't see any grounds for accepting Diemshitz's 1.00 discovery time.
On your two other points, I have moved on from delivering pamphlets to possibly picking up Wess's literature from the printing office.
Yes, that was a typo and should have read as you suggested.
Finally, I can empathise with your comment "as we all know, time can appear to go slower". Last night I was posting and casually looked up at the clock fully expecting it to read about 11pm. It actually read 3:45am. SWMBO was not impressed. She wants to know if there is an Alcoholics Anonomous equivalent for Ripperologists.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Surely he meant that he wasn’t on that particular beat? If wasn’t on FP duty what else could he have been doing?

I read this as him indicating that he wasn't on a beat that included the murder site.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I attibute "about" to lazy journalism rather than uncertainty about time. Lamb was reported elsewhere as "shortly before one". He would have seen the time on the two occasions that he passed the Harris but when he moved from that clock he is using estimates. Smith states he was at the Harris clock corner at one o'clock. We can't know how big that clock was nor how easy it would be to spot a time from a moving vehicle in the carriageway, but Diemshitz was reported initially as using his "usual" time of about one o'clock, and only later did it become exact clock time. He was returning from Crystal Palce so he would have crossed Tower Bridge and come down Commercial Road from the west, which means his view of the clock would have been obscured by the corner of the building.

East London Advertiser, Oct 6:

I have been steward of this club for six or seven years, and I live on the premises. It has been my habit, for some time past, to go on Saturdays to Westow Hill, Crystal Palace, where there is a market, at which I sell my wares. This morning I got back from Westow Market, as usual, about 1 o'clock. I drove up to the gate of the Clubhouse in my little cart, drawn by a pony, after being all day at the market. When I was passing through the double gates into the yard, I saw something on the ground, and struck a match. Then I saw that there was a woman lying there. At that time I took no further notice, and did not know whether she was drunk or dead. I ran indoors, and told some of the members of the Club that something had happened in the yard. One of the members, who is known as Isaacs, went out with me. We struck a match, and saw blood running from the gate all the way down to the side door of the club. We had the police sent for at once, but I believe it was several minutes before a constable could be found.

So what do you suppose Diemschitz told the police, when giving his statement to them?

NBFN: Marshall MAY have seen Liz but before Parcelman presented her flowers. Packer said he was laughing about them standing in the rain. Smith said the rain stopped at about 11pm the the grape purchase had to be before that time.

Stride and her companion were waiting for the rain to stop at 11am - when at the pub on Settle's street - before leaving. Presumably she had already been there for more than 5 minutes. So the grapes must have been purchased well before then, if Packer's recollections are deemed to be accurate enough. So why does she go to Berner street, twice? Also, she was witnessed wearing a flower when at the pub. Was it a different flower?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

It is not so much the size as the shape. A bag of grapes is not usually rectangular. I am not opposing the grapes theories, but they are very controversial. The doctors saw no grapes and found no skins or seeds in the stomach. But it is my understanding that the fashion at the time was to spit out the seeds and skin. The police didn't see any grapes either but there were multiple witnesses that said they did.

Hey George.
Whether Stride held any grapes or not adds nothing to the story, however acknowledging the suspect seen by Packer does.
The yard was washed down before 5:00am, was it light enough to see any squashed black grapes? I don't know, it doesn't concern me one way or the other. However, the presence of that suspect does. I think it is necessary to include him in any theory.

The purchase of grapes isn't incompatible with Parcelman having picked up socialist pamphlets from the printer in the yard.

First point, I think this entire 'pamphlet' argument is a wild goose chase. It was invented in order to incriminate a club member, that plan eventually failed. Now unfortunately others (I think like yourself?) have picked up on it and formed your own theory.
I did ask previously if you had seen any evidence of the size of the package matching some theoretical 'pamphlet'?
Have you?

Ok, lets run through this.
I think it was Krantz who lived at the club and worked in the printing office. If anyone had come to deliver or pick up some pamphlets, wouldn't you expect this have been mentioned to police by Krantz?
Wouldn't this need to be a club member?, didn't the police detain all the club members and have them establish their presence and account for why they were there that night?
If so, then how is it we have a lone delivery boy who slipped in & out without being noticed, or at least been mentioned by anyone?
Why didn't PC Smith identify a club member as the Parcel-man?
Alternately, when the suspect's description was published, no-one claimed it matched a club member.

The theory that Parcelman was somewhere further back in the yard is viable, but then we need an explanation as to why he didn't intervene in BSM's assault on Liz,...

Why would he intervene?, I'm not saying he was in love with the woman. If he intended to kill her anyway then someone has just given him the perfect alibi.
A stranger is seen assaulting the woman he was with, but no-one saw him in the shadows. He can kill her with impunity, no-one knew he was there, and some other poor fool was seen assaulting her - perfect!

.....and where was he when Lamb arrived?

I think there was a time-window where he could have slipped out.
Diemscitz ran in to the club to get help, the yard was empty at that moment, he had the chance to slip out the open gate, if he wasn't already gone before Diemschitz arrived?

[Herlock Sholmes]

He was on general patrol of Commercial Road. The part of Comm. Rd. he was found at, was part of Smith's beat, but Lamb's patrolling included that section. Not being on a beat meant he did not need to be quite as cognizant of the time.

Ok. Where did you get that info from?

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Herlock: Many thanks for the computer tip - it worked. But when it comes to time you're a hard nut to crack my friend.
Diemshitz moves from usual arrival time to to observing a clock in a window from a moving vehicle after a very long day time. His estimate of Lamb's arrival before the doctor computes to 12:56, which gels with Lamb's "shortly before one" and Smith's "at one" at the corner.
According to Diemshitz, he and Spooner arrive together, but Diemshitz says the police arrived at that very moment and Spooner says he had to wait 5 minutes.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I can't see any grounds for accepting Diemshitz's 1.00 discovery time.
On your two other points, I have moved on from delivering pamphlets to possibly picking up Wess's literature from the printing office.
Yes, that was a typo and should have read as you suggested.
Finally, I can empathise with your comment "as we all know, time can appear to go slower". Last night I was posting and casually looked up at the clock fully expecting it to read about 11pm. It actually read 3:45am. SWMBO was not impressed. She wants to know if there is an Alcoholics Anonomous equivalent for Ripperologists.

But there’s no need to try and compute any times George because Diemschutz tells us that he passed the clock at 1.00. For me, this has to be taken as ‘set in stone’ like Blackwell’s 1.16 time. All the times tie up easily as long as we allow for a margin for error.

[GBinOz]

Hey George.
Whether Stride held any grapes or not adds nothing to the story, however acknowledging the suspect seen by Packer does.
The yard was washed down before 5:00am, was it light enough to see any squashed black grapes? I don't know, it doesn't concern me one way or the other. However, the presence of that suspect does. I think it is necessary to include him in any theory.



First point, I think this entire 'pamphlet' argument is a wild goose chase. It was invented in order to incriminate a club member, that plan eventually failed. Now unfortunately others (I think like yourself?) have picked up on it and formed your own theory.
I did ask previously if you had seen any evidence of the size of the package matching some theoretical 'pamphlet'?
Have you? Sorry Jon, I wasn't ignoring your question, I just overlooked it. Answer is yes. Some time ago I remember skimming over a post that suggested that pamphlets of the same size as Parcelman's package were produced in the Dutfield's printery. What prompted my post was reading Wess's testimony that he delivered some literature to the printer. I was actually seeking possibilties for source of Parcelman's package.

Ok, lets run through this.
I think it was Krantz who lived at the club and worked in the printing office. If anyone had come to deliver or pick up some pamphlets, wouldn't you expect this have been mentioned to police by Krantz? No, can't see any relevance of pamphlet pickup to a murder investigation.
Wouldn't this need to be a club member?, didn't the police detain all the club members and have them establish their presence and account for why they were there that night? In my scenario Parcelman was gone - pursuing BSM.
If so, then how is it we have a lone delivery boy who slipped in & out without being noticed, or at least been mentioned by anyone? Trivial everyday occurance for a print shop.
Why didn't PC Smith identify a club member as the Parcel-man? As above, he wasn't there.
Alternately, when the suspect's description was published, no-one claimed it matched a club member. It was only a desription and could have applied to a lot of people. There were a number of differing descriptions of Stride and Parcelman.


Why would he intervene?, I'm not saying he was in love with the woman. If he intended to kill her anyway then someone has just given him the perfect alibi.
A stranger is seen assaulting the woman he was with, but no-one saw him in the shadows. He can kill her with impunity, no-one knew he was there, and some other poor fool was seen assaulting her - perfect! I am firmly of the opinion that he had no murderous intent whatsoever.

I think there was a time-window where he could have slipped out.
Diemscitz ran in to the club to get help, the yard was empty at that moment, he had the chance to slip out the open gate, if he wasn't already gone before Diemschitz arrived? As above, he was already gone in pursuit of BSM.

Jon, none of us know the answers but we can share ideas and have them peer tested. I am in the camp that doesn't think that Stride was a JtR victim. As you know I think Diemshitz was mistaken in his times. In my timeline there is no time for anyone else other than BSM to have killed Stride, unless Schwartz made the whole thing up to provide a cover story, similar to the one you detail above for Parcelman, in which case I then have Schwartz as the murderer

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

But there’s no need to try and compute any times George because Diemschutz tells us that he passed the clock at 1.00. For me, this has to be taken as ‘set in stone’ like Blackwell’s 1.16 time. All the times tie up easily as long as we allow for a margin for error.

Herlock, In the brief time we have been trading ideas I have come to think of you as the champion of time calculations. I think I'll have to call No Fair on your objection to me using your methods. I too have a carving in stone and it reads......SMITH.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

The only difference George is that we know for a fact that Diemschutz took his time from the clock whereas the possibility exists that Smith arrived at his.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Herlock, In the brief time we have been trading ideas I have come to think of you as the champion of time calculations. I think I'll have to call No Fair on your objection to me using your methods. I too have a carving in stone and it reads......SMITH.

Cheers, George

The only difference George is that we know for a fact that Diemschutz took his time from the clock whereas the possibility exists that Smith arrived at his.

The issue with the Harris clock is that both Diemschitz and Smith had a chance to look at it, yet both report being at that corner at 1:00. How could Diemschitz have looked at it, but not Smith? Very counter-intuitive. More generally, how could Diemschitz be correct about the time, and the beat PC be out by several minutes? Also very counter-intuitive.

So who was wrong? Given that Diemschitz was originally saying he got home about 1am, before sharpening that up to exactly 1am, I would say it were Diemschitz who was wrong. It's quite possible that due to problems of nighttime visibility from his moving cart, Diemschitz never even looked at that clock behind the window.