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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Hi George.
    I would sooner believe an estimated dimension can be way off, rather than believe Stride was with two different men, at the same location, dressed similar, and both carrying a parcel, at roughly the same time.
    That coincidence is expecting far too much.



    I do not disagree with anything in that paragraph. It's just that the man she was with at the Bricklayer's Arms, is parcel-man, and he also bought the grapes.
    I suspect he was in the shadows of the yard when Schwartz walked bye, this is why Schwartz didn't see him.
    BS-man may have seen him, it is this what caused BS-man to accost her, she was acting like a prostitute with a client, and BS-man told her to get away from here, or something similar.
    Hi Jon,

    It is not so much the size as the shape. A bag of grapes is not usually rectangular. I am not opposing the grapes theories, but they are very controversial. The doctors saw no grapes and found no skins or seeds in the stomach. But it is my understanding that the fashion at the time was to spit out the seeds and skin. The police didn't see any grapes either but there were multiple witnesses that said they did. The purchase of grapes isn't incompatible with Parcelman having picked up socialist pamphlets from the printer in the yard. When Smith saw them they may have already consumed the grapes, or Liz may have been holding any grapes that they hadn't consumed.

    The theory that Parcelman was somewhere further back in the yard is viable, but then we need an explanation as to why he didn't intervene in BSM's assault on Liz, and where was he when Lamb arrived? He would have been a far better witness than Schwartz. Did he give chase after BSM. There is a report that a chase was observed. Perhaps after BSM eluded him he returned to the yard (or not) and gave consideration to fact fact that he had been seen that night with Stride by many witnesses and he would be be considered the prime suspect. Tough rap to beat as he may not have even been aware of Schwartz or that Schwartz may be able to clear him.

    Cheers, George
    Last edited by GBinOz; 07-03-2021, 04:51 AM.
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

    “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      It’s not a case of averting eyes George it’s a case of being human. Humans are not always entirely diligent or without fault. Police officers included.

      We know that Lamb was approached in Commercial Road: “About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell,” So he’s clearly estimating, but he doesn’t inform us as to how he arrived at that time. When he got there he sent a colleague for a Doctor.

      Edward Johnston said that an officer got to his door at: “About five or ten minutes past 1.” Notice that even Johnston uses ‘about’ so he’s estimating too despite the fact that he undoubtedly would have owned a watch. Then after he’d arrived at the yard: “As soon as Dr. Blackwell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1.16. I was there three or four minutes before Dr. Blackwell.”

      And so we can see that Johnston arrived at around 1.12/1.13.

      So we can see that, using a very conservative use of approximations, Lamb was initially approached at around 1.05 and arrived at the yard around 1.06. He sends a Constable who arrived at Johnston’s house close to 1.10. Johnston dashes straight to Berner Street and arrives around 1.12/1.13. Then Dr Blackwell arrived 3 or 4 minutes later. These times align perfectly.

      Smith arrived at the yard just after Lamb. He had no reason lie. So he must have gone into Berner Street just after 1.05.

      There’s no need for us to continually try and break our backs on this issue. It’s very simple. The stumbling block for some appears to be this sentence attributed to PC Smith at the Inquest: “At 1 o’clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.”

      Now of course we can look at various phrases in this case and apply differing interpretations to them cautiously but again we have to consider wording (and also the fact that these are Press transcriptions of course) So the above sentence might simply have meant that he went into Berner Street at what he estimated was 1.00 because that was the time that his round usually took him into Berner Street? I’m only suggesting a possibility.

      ….

      When all is said and done….

      Lamb’s time ties in with Johnston and Blackwell (and therefore Blackwell’s watch) so we know that he went into Berner Street around 1.05. We also know that Smith arrived after him. Therefore PC Smith must have gone into Berner Street just after 1.05. I just don’t see how this can be disputed. Take 30 minutes (the duration of his round) from 1.05 and what time do we get? 12.35 the time that he said that he last passed. Why do we keep working so hard to try and find non-existent cracks in this? We just need to allow for the fact that we can’t take an estimated time as an exact time.

      ​​​​​​​There are no timing issues of any real importance.
      Hi Herlock,

      Your statement from above:
      As soon as Dr. Blackwell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1.16."

      From the Casebook entry here: https://www.casebook.org/official_do...l?printer=true
      The Daily Telegraph account of the inquest - Coroners questioning of Diemshitz

      [Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man (Spooner) whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
      [Coroner] Had the constables arrived then? - At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived.
      [Coroner] Did you notice anything unusual when you were approaching the club? - No.
      [Coroner] You saw nothing suspicious? - Not at all.
      [Coroner] How soon afterwards did a doctor arrive? - About twenty minutes after the constables came up.

      Spooners testimoney to the Coroner from same source:

      [Coroner] Could any one have left without your observing it? - I cannot say, but I think there were too many people about. I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

      In these statements Diemshitz is contradicting his own time of arrival. I wonder how many other witnesses at the club were calibrating their times on Diemshitz's time of discovery of a little after 1 o'clock?

      Cheers, George
      “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

      “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

        The Daily Telegraph records Smith's satement at the inquest as " I was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock". This is right in front of the Harris clock.
        It is odd that neither Lamb nor Smith mention this clock. Was it a public clock? If not, then would PC's make use of it? Also, can we be sure the clock was lit well enough that a passerby could clearly read it?

        I agree that Smith arrived at the yard after Lamb but I am proposing that Lamb's statement about being called "shortly before 1 o'clock" was correct and that he was at the yard, or very close to it, by 1 o'clock when Smith was at the Harris clock corner.
        If Lamb had been in the fixed point area at the time of or just prior to being alerted, he could have recently made use of the same clock the that fixed point 426H used as his main reference. Assuming there was one. Else 426H might have had a timepiece. Either way, 426H was still at or very near his fixed point when alerted.

        Wick - Why introduce a third person? My opinion at this point in time is that Parcelman and Liz were together for some time and that most of the witness were seeing them with variations in descriptions being attributable to poor lighting - I have read that the a average gaslight street lamp threw about as much light as a modern refrigerator and Berner St had only four street lamps. Witnesses stated that Liz made extra efforts for her night out and at this time I am not prepared to cast Parcelman as the Ripper or as her murderer. The problem then arises, where is he when Liz is murdered? If they were not saying goodnight when Smith saw them then he would have been in the club or the yard - maybe he had to use the toilets?
        This is hard to say without knowing the purpose of the parcel. Delivery of political pamphlets would seem like taking coals to Newcastle. Smith may have underestimated the size of the parcel, making it even less likely to be for grapes. Could it have been a simple work bag? Something a fairly poor working class man would use to carry his lunch and drink in? Perhaps parcel man were on his way home down Berner street, when he initially came across Liz.
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • I just checked back on the timeline that I proposed in my post #1585 and compared it with what I put in my last post (#1637) and it's not looking too bad:

          12:30 - Smith sees Parcelman and Stride and is heard passing by FM.
          12:31 - Parcelman and Stride cross into the yard just before FM arrives at her door.
          12:41 - PM leaves door after locking up.
          12:42 - BSM and Schwartz arrive at the yard and BSM pulls Stride from the yard into the street.
          12:43 - Schwartz crosses the road and proceeds to Fairclough St.
          12:44 - Pipeman emerges, frightens Schwartz, BSM calls out Lipski. BSM and Schwartz depart to the south.
          12:45 - BSM kills Stride and is headed out of the gate when Parcelman returns from delivering his pamphlets, sees Stride on the ground and chases BSM. At the same time Diemshitz turns into Berner St.
          12:46 - PM hears the cart pass.
          12:47 - Diemshitz pulls into yard and horse shies.
          12:48 to 12:53 - Diemshitz prods Stride with whip, climbs down from cart, lights match and discovers her body, alerts those in the club who emerge and light matches to observe the body for a minute or so.
          12:54 - Club members depart the yard looking for police.
          12:57 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard.
          1:00 - Smith arrives at the Berner St/Commercial Road corner and observes Harris clock.
          1:02 - Smith arrives at yard.
          1:03 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor.
          1:05 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell and then dresses and leaves for yard.
          1:12 - Johnson arrives at yard.
          1:16 - Blackwell arrives at yard.

          19 Minutes.


          What do think Herlock?

          Cheers, George
          Last edited by GBinOz; 07-03-2021, 07:46 AM.
          “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

          “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

            This is hard to say without knowing the purpose of the parcel. Delivery of political pamphlets would seem like taking coals to Newcastle. Smith may have underestimated the size of the parcel, making it even less likely to be for grapes. Could it have been a simple work bag? Something a fairly poor working class man would use to carry his lunch and drink in? Perhaps parcel man were on his way home down Berner street, when he initially came across Liz.
            Perhaps this is the answer, from the same casebook source as above - testimony by Wess (West):

            [Coroner] How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock? - Because of the time when I reached my lodgings. Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there

            Was this literature picked up by Parcelman? If I look at a car, I may not be able to accurately determine its dimensions, but I can be sure it isn't a pumpkin!

            Cheers, George
            “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

            “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

            Comment


            • Hello George,

              Newspaper accounts vary, which necessitates independent corroboration as to which ones were correct.

              We know, Lamb was with the fixed point policeman. We know a fixed point policeman finishes his duty at 1:00 a.m.

              "All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m."

              We know failure to do so incurs a severe punishment. (Sir Howard Vincent's Police Code)

              Therefore when The Times reporter, along with the vast bulk of newspapers, quotes Lamb as stating, "About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell... " we know at least three things:

              1: "About..." and "as near as I can tell" means Lamb did not access the exact time from anywhere.
              2: That, since the fixed point PC was free to join him, the time by their reckoning was AFTER 1:00 a.m.
              3: Smith cannot have arrived at the top of Berner St at 1:00 a.m. ahead of the fixed point policeman, who could not leave his post until after 1:00 a.m. Therefore the newspaper reports that quote Smith as saying,

              "About one o’clock I saw a large crowd of people outside the gate of No. 40."

              are likely to be the most accurate.

              And, once again, Smith's use of the word "about", indicates he did not access a clock at that time.

              Brown tells us he was in the street at about 12:45 and again 3 or 4 minutes later.

              "On Sunday morning last, about 12.45...was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home."

              He was in his home for about quarter of an hour when he heard Deimshitz and Kozy run past.

              "I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams and shouts for the police - that would have been in about a quarter of an hour."

              Once again, this confirms a post 1:00 a.m. time for the police to be alerted.

              According to your proposed timeline, Brown could not have seen Mrs. Stride, but he should have seen or heard Deimshitz arrive, the Schwartz affair to some degree, and/or Parcel man chasing BSM.

              Fanny Mortimer gives varying accounts, but ALL have the common theme of Deimshitz arriving about 1:00 a.m. and the hullabaloo happening after 1:00 a.m..
              Whilst exactly how long she remained at her door is unclear, her claim that the street was quiet at the time your timeline has Deimshitz arriving followed by the club members running about, is confirmed by Goldstien.

              Charles Letchford was in the street at the time you claim the Parcel man incident happened and he did not see it.

              Add to this his sister standing at their door till about 1:00 a.m. and the young girl meeting her sweetheart in the street prior, the evidence is overwhelming.

              Like you, I have a fair degree of confidence in time estimates made by medical professionals, but I have no confidence that their times were in exact sync with the Harris's clock.

              The actual evidence tells us the police first responders were guessing the time.

              As to the personal interpretation aspects, that is by nature, obvioiusly, a personal interpretation. I have absolutely no problem with a young man returning home on a Saturday night, knowing a party might be going on, checking the time as he arrives. Just this week my family celebrated coming out of lockdown by going to the country for a few days. On returning the first thing my wife and I did was check the time. It's a natural reaction to ending a journey.

              I also have no problem with the police knowing an approximate time, but the actual evidence shows beyond doubt that they did not know an exact time.

              I have no idea whether Mrs stride was soliciting that night or simply out to have a good time, but we know that her activities involved several different men.
              Last edited by drstrange169; 07-03-2021, 08:01 AM.
              dustymiller
              aka drstrange

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                That would give Eagle barely 3 minutes to make it to Leman street police station. He had already been running around.

                Eagle was young and in an emergency situation. As long as it’s not impossible or near to it there’s no issue.

                It would also mean Smith not arriving until at least 1:09. That would mean Fanny heard his measured, heavy tramp at shortly before a quarter to one o'clock.

                You’ll have to explain this deduction. Smith arrived after Lamb but we don’t know how long after. So he might have arrived a minute later. So 1.06/1.07.

                So if he’d passed previously at 12.35 then this meant that his beat that time took 31 or 32 minutes. Is that impossible or unlikely? Smith doesn’t describe any occurrences on his route or whether he spoke to anyone? I’d can’t see any issue with his route taking 32 minutes


                No one has suggested that Smith might have lied, so why mention it?
                I mention the notion of Smith lying because you never know what’s going to be suggested next in the attempt to shoehorn in a non-existent cover-up. Smith might have been ‘in on it.’

                Regards

                Sir Herlock Sholmes

                “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                  But if he say's, "I can't recollect", how can you say he saw no-one?


                  She doesn't say there was no-one in Berner street opposite the club.
                  As I said, these are only possible obstacles, and presumably you want your theory to have some sort of robustness.

                  Wess sounds rather like Eagle...

                  I do not remember whether I met any one in Berner-street or in the yard.

                  He remembers pretty much everything else though.

                  As for the young woman, it might have occurred to her mention that they saw a woman with a man, across from the to be murder location. However, supposing they had but didn't mention it, and Wess had seen people in Fairclough street, and that both he and Eagle may have seen people in Berner street (and possibly spoken to them), then how likely was it that no one at all was on these streets, to witness an incident at 12:45?

                  The London Evening News gave us this account:

                  "...A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact."

                  It seems she wasn't there 'from' 12:30, but more like 12:45?
                  Mortimer only went to her door after she heard PC Smith? walk passed on his beat?
                  If the statement - carried by at least 3 papers - was so important, then why didn't the reporter who captured it, ask for the woman's name?
                  If you can answer that, and/or tell me the source of that statement, then I will weight it equally with the reports in which Fanny is quoted.

                  Packer said that after being served the couple crossed Berner street and stood there for a while, then crossed back to the west side about 12:10-12:15 roughly.
                  PC smith could have walked down the east side while they stood on the west side, then he noticed them as he walked back up Berner street.
                  How does this argue against Packer's story?
                  In a narrow street like Berner, it's possible Smith may have not seen them on his southerly pass. Possible, but not probable.

                  By the way, in which direction was the measured, heavy tramp going? By that, I mean Smith - not how it might have sounded. Was it up or down the street? If down, then Fanny should have seen all three people, according to the report. Did she?

                  I don't think Marshall saw Stride, he didn't see her wearing the flower, so likely Marshall saw a different couple.
                  Then the grape sale could have occurred at any time, ten minutes or so after she was seen leaving the Bricklayer's Arms.
                  Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                    1:03 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor.
                    1:05 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell and then dresses and leaves for yard.
                    1:12 - Johnson arrives at yard.
                    I don't think Johnston had to dress. He was awake, and Blackwell was asleep.

                    EJ: On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the case, I accompanied the officer to Berner-street...

                    Let's assume 1:05, as per your timeline.

                    WB: On Sunday morning last, at ten minutes past one o'clock, I was called to Berner-street by a policeman.

                    These accounts don't quite gel. Perhaps Blackwell's watch was ahead of time?
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      Hi Herlock,

                      Your statement from above:
                      As soon as Dr. Blackwell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1.16."

                      From the Casebook entry here: https://www.casebook.org/official_do...l?printer=true
                      The Daily Telegraph account of the inquest - Coroners questioning of Diemshitz

                      [Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man (Spooner) whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
                      [Coroner] Had the constables arrived then? - At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived.
                      [Coroner] Did you notice anything unusual when you were approaching the club? - No.
                      [Coroner] You saw nothing suspicious? - Not at all.
                      [Coroner] How soon afterwards did a doctor arrive? - About twenty minutes after the constables came up.

                      Spooners testimoney to the Coroner from same source:

                      [Coroner] Could any one have left without your observing it? - I cannot say, but I think there were too many people about. I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

                      In these statements Diemshitz is contradicting his own time of arrival. I wonder how many other witnesses at the club were calibrating their times on Diemshitz's time of discovery of a little after 1 o'clock?

                      Cheers, George

                      Hello George,

                      As you know, there are discrepancies everywhere but Spooner is a classic because in the same statements he gives 2 different times for arriving at the yard! The one quoted above (12.35) which he said he’d arrived at via pub closing times and then when he said “I stood there about five minutes before a constable came” where he’s saying that he got to the yard 5 minutes before Lamb arrived.

                      We know that this 12.35 time was wrong of course because this would have had Diemschutz discovering the body at around 12.30.

                      James Brown confirms Diemschutz too. He saw Stride when he went to the Chandler’s Shop at 12.45 (so Stride is still alive) He gets his supper and returns home so let’s say he’s home by 12.50 ish. Then: “I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of “Police” and “Murder.” That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.” So he hears Diemschutz and Kozebrodski looking for a Constable at just the time that Diemschutz said.

                      It all points to Diemschutz telling the truth and not being mistaken. The ‘20 minutes after the Constables…..” was simply him estimating a duration of time. In these circumstances, as we all know, time can appear to go slower (‘a watched pot never boils’) so he estimated 20 minutes when it was actually 10.


                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes

                      “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                        I just checked back on the timeline that I proposed in my post #1585 and compared it with what I put in my last post (#1637) and it's not looking too bad:

                        12:30 - Smith sees Parcelman and Stride and is heard passing by FM.
                        12:31 - Parcelman and Stride cross into the yard just before FM arrives at her door.
                        12:41 - PM leaves door after locking up.
                        12:42 - BSM and Schwartz arrive at the yard and BSM pulls Stride from the yard into the street.
                        12:43 - Schwartz crosses the road and proceeds to Fairclough St.
                        12:44 - Pipeman emerges, frightens Schwartz, BSM calls out Lipski. BSM and Schwartz depart to the south.
                        12:45 - BSM kills Stride and is headed out of the gate when Parcelman returns from delivering his pamphlets, sees Stride on the ground and chases BSM. At the same time Diemshitz turns into Berner St.
                        12:46 - PM hears the cart pass.
                        12:47 - Diemshitz pulls into yard and horse shies.
                        12:48 to 12:53 - Diemshitz prods Stride with whip, climbs down from cart, lights match and discovers her body, alerts those in the club who emerge and light matches to observe the body for a minute or so.
                        12:54 - Club members depart the yard looking for police.
                        12:57 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard.
                        1:00 - Smith arrives at the Berner St/Commercial Road corner and observes Harris clock.
                        1:02 - Smith arrives at yard.
                        1:03 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor.
                        1:05 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell and then dresses and leaves for yard.
                        1:12 - Johnson arrives at yard.
                        1:16 - Blackwell arrives at yard.

                        19 Minutes.


                        What do think Herlock?

                        Cheers, George
                        The main problem for me George is that viewed objectively Diemschutz 1.00 is just as reliable as Blackwell’s 1.16 and no one doubts him. I don’t think that we have any grounds for doubting Diemschutz. Not a single one. So I’m convinced that he arrived when he said that he did and that we have to recreate events around a 1.00 discovery time.

                        I’d echo Wick’s point in that would anyone deliver pamphlets after midnight?

                        btw George is your 12.44 a typo? Surely you mean Pipeman and Schwartz depart to the south?
                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes

                        “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                          Hello George,

                          Newspaper accounts vary, which necessitates independent corroboration as to which ones were correct.
                          Was the Daily Telegraph correct about James Brown...?

                          I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.

                          2: That, since the fixed point PC was free to join him, the time by their reckoning was AFTER 1:00 a.m.
                          He was free to join him, and still at the fixed point. I reckon that means it was right on 1am. If it were significantly after 1am, why would 426H still be at the fixed point?

                          3: Smith cannot have arrived at the top of Berner St at 1:00 a.m. ahead of the fixed point policeman, who could not leave his post until after 1:00 a.m. Therefore the newspaper reports that quote Smith as saying,

                          "About one o’clock I saw a large crowd of people outside the gate of No. 40."

                          are likely to be the most accurate.
                          I would say the Times was the most accurate...

                          At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.

                          Smith was at Gower's Walk at 1:00am.

                          And, once again, Smith's use of the word "about", indicates he did not access a clock at that time.
                          Brown uses the word 'about' twice - yet you're still happy to say Brown confirms Diemschitz.

                          Brown tells us he was in the street at about 12:45 and again 3 or 4 minutes later.

                          "On Sunday morning last, about 12.45...was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home."
                          So Brown, according to this reporter, saw a couple on the board school corner at about 12:48 or 49. So when did the Schwartz incident occur? Was this the couple who spoke to The Daily Mail and Fanny Mortimer?

                          He was in his home for about quarter of an hour when he heard Deimshitz and Kozy run past.

                          "I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams and shouts for the police - that would have been in about a quarter of an hour."

                          Once again, this confirms a post 1:00 a.m. time for the police to be alerted.
                          So who is this person...?

                          The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

                          Fanny Mortimer gives varying accounts, but ALL have the common theme of Deimshitz arriving about 1:00 a.m. and the hullabaloo happening after 1:00 a.m..
                          Whilst exactly how long she remained at her door is unclear, her claim that the street was quiet at the time your timeline has Deimshitz arriving followed by the club members running about, is confirmed by Goldstien.
                          Confirmed by Goldstein? How?

                          Charles Letchford was in the street at the time you claim the Parcel man incident happened and he did not see it.

                          Add to this his sister standing at their door till about 1:00 a.m. and the young girl meeting her sweetheart in the street prior, the evidence is overwhelming.
                          Until about 1am? How did you work that out?

                          Like you, I have a fair degree of confidence in time estimates made by medical professionals, but I have no confidence that their times were in exact sync with the Harris's clock.

                          The actual evidence tells us the police first responders were guessing the time.
                          Lamb was not on a beat. Smith was. PCs on a beat did not guess the time. They used clocks to keep updating their estimate of the time.

                          I have no idea whether Mrs stride was soliciting that night or simply out to have a good time, but we know that her activities involved several different men.
                          We don't know that. We can only compare eyewitness descriptions.
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                            Perhaps this is the answer, from the same casebook source as above - testimony by Wess (West):

                            [Coroner] How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock? - Because of the time when I reached my lodgings. Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there

                            Was this literature picked up by Parcelman? If I look at a car, I may not be able to accurately determine its dimensions, but I can be sure it isn't a pumpkin!

                            Cheers, George
                            It's possible Wess left leftover pamphlets there. Where would parcel man be taking them? To another club?
                            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • . He was free to join him, and still at the fixed point. I reckon that means it was right on 1am. If it were significantly after 1am, why would 426H still be at the fixed point?
                              It couldn’t have been right on 1.00 because Diemschutz arrived at 1.00 after seeing a clock.

                              Your point about the Fixed Point Officer was answered by Neil Bell, as you well know. A Serjeant would go around rounding up FP officers and marching them back to the station. Very obviously he couldn’t have arrived at each Officer at exactly 1.00. So the question of why the FP Officer was still there is a non-issue.

                              Another perfect illustration of your determination to place a sinister slant on everything. There is no mystery. Diemschutz and Blackwell are the fixed points. Everything else ties in with a reasonable margin for error.
                              Regards

                              Sir Herlock Sholmes

                              “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                              Comment


                              • . Brown uses the word 'about' twice - yet you're still happy to say Brown confirms Diemschitz
                                Because he does.

                                So all of a sudden you are conscientiously pointing out estimations when you spend most of your time on here holding witnesses to exact times to try and undermine them?
                                Regards

                                Sir Herlock Sholmes

                                “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                                Comment

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