If Schwartz Lied ...

[caz]

[*]We will never know Schwartz's motivation for coming forward. As you say, he must have felt had a compelling enough reason to do so by putting his name and life in possible danger

I didn't think his name was ever in the public domain, ero. Wasn't he just referred to as the Hungarian in The Star?

It would have been out there if he had attended the Inquest, so that's another possible reason why he didn't. Strong Jewish appearance; could have seen the murderer; could have gone on to identify him if police enquiries had managed to find him; had a surname that was not very common; potentially the only witness to see an actual assault on any of the victims shortly before she was found dead.

Far from considering him a completely unreliable witness, or letting him fade quietly into the night, the police might have been wiser to keep him on ice, well away from harm's way, until needed. We can't even be certain he wasn't used at a later date to try and identify any potential suspects.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Harris's clock was in the window of the shop, so Deimshitz would have been unlikely to have heard it strike, conformation would more likely be visual.

So what to make of the Echo report...?

The steward of the International and Educational Club reached the gate just as the clock struck one.

As for Smith, I'm not aware of him ever been reported as claiming he saw the time on the Harris's clock.

He did not run down Berner street, so it seems odd that he would not have updated his time sense, by looking at that clock.

Since both policemen are recorded as estimating the time whereas Deimshitz gave a very specific reference as to where and how he saw the time, I can''t see any reason for not taking his claim as the most legitimate.

Hypothetically, if a PC on Smith's beat were randomly questioned about the time, what is the maximum you would suppose they would ever be out by? Or the average error? It would seem to depend on how many clocks were visible on the round.

Smith's timing guesses are problematical because Spooner does not mention seeing him pass by.

This could be turned around...

Spooner's timing guesses are problematical because he does not mention seeing Smith pass by.

[GBinOz]

If an effort to address the title of this thread - "if Schwartz lied" I would like to present a wildly speculative scenario of how he may have lied - not just a little lie - but made up the whole story.

The first question to be answered is - why would he bother. Well, maybe he was just an attention seeker....or... perhaps he needed a cover story.

Suppose that after Smith passed by Parcelman and Stride they went across to the yard and Parcelman left Liz by the side door of the club while he transacted some business within. Enter Schwartz from the club premises. He enters into an argument with Stride for what ever reason you may care to imagine. She turns her back on him and walks away towards the gate. In a fit of perceived insult, he grabs her by her scarf, puts her on the ground, cuts her throat and then heads for the gateway. At that moment Parcelman returns and sees Liz bleeding out and pursues Schwartz. This is consistant with the story that a person, presumed to be the murderer, was pursued by a non club member. Schwartz evades his pursuer but being a local, thinks, what if someone who knows me saw me being pursued after a murder is reported. So thinks he, I'll concoct a story where I witness an attack on the woman concerned and am then pursued by a knife weilding accomplice - yeah, thats it.

Total balderdash?(!) So tell me where I went wrong.

Cheers, george

[Abby Normal]

Hi Herlock,
Thank you for your welcome.

Here is a link to a map of Smith's beat: https://www.casebook.org/police_offi...ith.html#smith

I haven't read any inquest evidence where Lamb states what time he arrived at the yard. He said at the inquest: "Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting" As you can see from the map, Smith must have been walking up Christian St at that time and been just a little behind Lamb. Given that Lamb knew he was about to be involved in a murder case he would surely have checked the Tobacconist clock as he passed.

Do you see a problem with the reason for Stride being in the yard being that she was still in the company of, and waiting for, Parcelman?

Cheers, George

hi george welcome!

whos parcel man?

[erobitha]

I didn't think his name was ever in the public domain, ero. Wasn't he just referred to as the Hungarian in The Star?

It would have been out there if he had attended the Inquest, so that's another possible reason why he didn't. Strong Jewish appearance; could have seen the murderer; could have gone on to identify him if police enquiries had managed to find him; had a surname that was not very common; potentially the only witness to see an actual assault on any of the victims shortly before she was found dead.

Far from considering him a completely unreliable witness, or letting him fade quietly into the night, the police might have been wiser to keep him on ice, well away from harm's way, until needed. We can't even be certain he wasn't used at a later date to try and identify any potential suspects.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

His name would have undoubtedly been used at the inquest if the police required him and any subsequent trial. So the risk of being named remained, and that would have been known to him. As others have said, Goldstein required a lot of convincing to come forward, yet this witness does so willingly the very next day. On the point of The Star, that is another reason to disbelieve their "interview". They did not say how they came to know his name, so how do we know they did?

If Schwartz never gave his statement, we would never have had BS man or pipeman. Did that add or detract from the evidence?

The "identifying later suspects" reference, I assume, is to the seaside home? An event we don't know even actually know took place. If it did, it could quite as easily been Lavende. How did the police find Schwartz later if no one in modern times can? No email, no phone, no internet. He must have been on official record somewhere for them to have found later? I hope there were not relying on Swanson's notes.

Schwartz for now will remain in my ever-growing list of "unreliable witnesses".

Regards,

Ero

[NotBlamedForNothing]

This was an error of reporting in some way. It’s beyond belief that FM wouldn’t have specifically told the Police that she’d seen this person of real interest twice on the same spot near to the murder site. But she didn’t say this because she didn’t see him twice.

I've already explained this. She may well have told the police that she had seen an unknown man with a black bag, on two occasions. Yet until late Tuesday evening, this man was, in the important sense, anonymous. Now when Goldstein and Wess went to Leman street, did the officer they spoke to have knowledge of Fanny Mortimer's statement? He may have only been aware of this...

It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

In other words, his knowledge of Fanny Mortimer may have been at about your level.

[GBinOz]

hi george welcome!

whos parcel man?

Hi Abby,
Thank you for your welcome.

Parcelman is the man who Smith saw with Stride between 12:30 and 12:35. The name Parcelman comes from the fact that he was carrying a parcel about 18" long and covered in (news)paper. It has been suggested by another poster (Tom Westcott I think) that the size indicated that they may have been pro-socialist pamphlets.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

As Dusty has said, a clock inside a shop window unlikely in the extreme to have been heard from the outside even by someone passing by on the pavement but Louis was on the road with the additional noise of his horses hooves and the cart.

Be that as it may, I was just reporting what Diemshitz told the press reporter.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
So what to make of the Echo report...?

The steward of the International and Educational Club reached the gate just as the clock struck one.

We make nothing of it as it’s irrelevant. Did the reporter mean that some clock chimed as Diemschutz came through the gates? Of course not. He saw the clock at 1.00 and arrived a few seconds later. If you want to keep reading things into every single difference in phraseology and wording in every single Press report then it’s up to you how much of your own time you waste.

The sentence can safely be ignored.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,
Thank you for your welcome.

Parcelman is the man who Smith saw with Stride between 12:30 and 12:35. The name Parcelman comes from the fact that he was carrying a parcel about 18" long and covered in (news)paper. It has been suggested by another poster (Tom Westcott I think) that the size indicated that they may have been pro-socialist pamphlets.

Cheers, George

gotcha! thanks

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've already explained this. She may well have told the police that she had seen an unknown man with a black bag, on two occasions. Yet until late Tuesday evening, this man was, in the important sense, anonymous. Now when Goldstein and Wess went to Leman street, did the officer they spoke to have knowledge of Fanny Mortimer's statement? He may have only been aware of this...

It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

In other words, his knowledge of Fanny Mortimer may have been at about your level.

And of course yours is on a psychic level. But I tell you what I do know about Fanny Mortimer…. that we cannot accept that she was on her doorstep when Schwartz passed.

Your explanation is nonsense but that’s to be expected. “She may well….” “did the Officer they …..” “He may have only….”

If that’s your description of an explanation…..

As ever, you are simply making things up. Seeing everything n terms of your obsession with a non-existent cover-up.

Diemschutz discovered the body at 1.00. This is a fact and should be treated as such.

[Abby Normal]

If an effort to address the title of this thread - "if Schwartz lied" I would like to present a wildly speculative scenario of how he may have lied - not just a little lie - but made up the whole story.

The first question to be answered is - why would he bother. Well, maybe he was just an attention seeker....or... perhaps he needed a cover story.

Suppose that after Smith passed by Parcelman and Stride they went across to the yard and Parcelman left Liz by the side door of the club while he transacted some business within. Enter Schwartz from the club premises. He enters into an argument with Stride for what ever reason you may care to imagine. She turns her back on him and walks away towards the gate. In a fit of perceived insult, he grabs her by her scarf, puts her on the ground, cuts her throat and then heads for the gateway. At that moment Parcelman returns and sees Liz bleeding out and pursues Schwartz. This is consistant with the story that a person, presumed to be the murderer, was pursued by a non club member. Schwartz evades his pursuer but being a local, thinks, what if someone who knows me saw me being pursued after a murder is reported. So thinks he, I'll concoct a story where I witness an attack on the woman concerned and am then pursued by a knife weilding accomplice - yeah, thats it.

Total balderdash?(!) So tell me where I went wrong.

Cheers, george

so one club member pursuing another? then why wouldnt parcelman just tell the cops on schwartz?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m tired of reading your over-imaginative conspiracist crap! No wonder Ripperologist get such a bad press when we have to continually wade through these embarrassing, bat-crap crazy, ego-driven fantasies. I might start a thread on Bucks Row as I’ve only heard you make things up about Hanbury Street, Mitre Square and Berner Street. I’m sure that you could discern a conspiracy or 3 with the Nichols murder!! God, you’ll have a field day with the Kelly murder, there’ll be Illuminati, aliens, Freemasons the lot!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've already explained this. She may well have told the police that she had seen an unknown man with a black bag, on two occasions. Yet until late Tuesday evening, this man was, in the important sense, anonymous. Now when Goldstein and Wess went to Leman street, did the officer they spoke to have knowledge of Fanny Mortimer's statement? He may have only been aware of this...

It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

In other words, his knowledge of Fanny Mortimer may have been at about your level.

I’m tired of reading your over-imaginative conspiracist crap! No wonder Ripperologist get such a bad press when we have to continually wade through these embarrassing, bat-crap crazy, ego-driven fantasies. I might start a thread on Bucks Row as I’ve only heard you make things up about Hanbury Street, Mitre Square and Berner Street. I’m sure that you could discern a conspiracy or 3 with the Nichols murder!! God, you’ll have a field day with the Kelly murder, there’ll be Illuminati, aliens, Freemasons the lot!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As others have said, Goldstein required a lot of convincing to come forward, yet this witness does so willingly the very next day.

Which is ironic, considering one report has Schwartz regarded by some unknown individuals as the murderer, whereas we are led to believe that Goldstein did nothing more than walk down Berner street "at about the time of the murder", carrying a bagful of empty cigarette boxes.

The other irony is that Schwartz lived (supposedly) at 22 Ellen street, whereas Goldstein lived at 22 Christian street - in other words, near a railway arch.