If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a quick message for all……

As we often get questions about the police and policing I thought that we could do with a police expert so I asked Jon Menges to check with Neil Bell (Monty) and the result was that I’ve set up a thread in the Police Procedures section called Ask Monty…..

Neil isn’t a regular poster these days but he’ll check in every so often to see if there are any questions for him. So if you have any questions about the Police/Procedures/Working Practices etc post there for an answer.

[FrankO]

Just a quick message for all……

As we often get questions about the police and policing I thought that we could do with a police expert so I asked Jon Menges to check with Neil Bell (Monty) and the result was that I’ve set up a thread in the Police Procedures section called Ask Monty…..

Neil isn’t a regular poster these days but he’ll check in every so often to see if there are any questions for him. So if you have any questions about the Police/Procedures/Working Practices etc post there for an answer.

Thanks Mike, much appreciated!

[Herlock Sholmes]

. If Smith's about 1 o'clock can be interpreted out to 1:07, then logically there must be room for Diemshitz's about 1 o'clock to be interpreted back to 12:53.

Ive certainly suggested around 1.06 as a possible time that Smith made his 2nd pass but it’s based on the evidence from both sides of that time which make it far more likely than any pre-1.00 time (apologies about my suggestion that you might have suggested a pre-1.00 time btw)

We have Diemschutz who’s 1.00 arrival time was backed up by his wife, Mila the servant, Julius Minsky, Morris Eagle and Gilleman.

We have Smith not going to fetch an ambulance until Johnston arrived at 1.12/1.13 which means that he’d have been at the yard for a full 12 minutes before going which doesn’t appear at all likely.

We can make a very decent estimation of the time that Lamb was first informed from Johnston and Blackwell. These point to around 1.05.

This 1.05 Lamb estimate ties in with Eagle’s story.

So basically although we can’t give an exact timing an estimate of around 1.06 for Smith seems reasonable and logical.

[GBinOz]

We've strayed a little off the topic, "if schwartz lied", with the concern for the time of discovery. Iv'e just read Bromley's dissertation and he tends to agree with the possibilty that that Smith may have been a little latter than 1'oclock at the Berner Corner. Here's his final map:



He compiled it from Smith's inquest testimony:

"Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street]. The witness continued, - It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.".

Smith's times at Berner St match his beat time. Could it be that both times (12:30-12:35 and 1 o'clock) he was actually referring to times for his being at the Commercial/Berner corner?

The point he made was that if Smith's times were a little too early, Mortimer's times would be a better fit but Schwartz's times get very tight. He concludes, as do I, that as soon as Smith passed them Parcelman and Stride went straight to the yard. Why? Stride was a charwoman and there was about to be a big cleanup after the party in the club, in which case Parcelman may have said goodnight and departed. Maybe he needed to use the toilets in the yard? My speculations.

So Liz was likely killed by BSM if Schwartz didn't lie, or, Parcelman or someone from the club meeting if Schwartz did lie. Stride seems to have been with Parcelman since the Bricklayer's Arms at 11:00, seen by Marshall on their way to Ellen St and possibly by Packer. Brown saw the young couple spoken of and to by Mortimer. Liz was plied with flowers, hugs and kisses, and maybe grapes. She had made a sprecial effort with her appearance that night, and I believe she was with a beau. The Ripper's MO doesn't fit this courting behaviour. If BSM was a drunken slighted lover, Kidney comes to mind but the description doesn't fit, but several witnesses said Liz had been living in Fashion St with another man so maybe it was he.

If she was killed by a club member I can very well imagine that the members would be concerned at the reaction of the public, in the very same way as Warren when he erased the GSG. The report here:https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18890319.html paints them as a pretty rough group. So "if Schwartz lied" there may well have been an attempt to cover up with the "chased man" story and Schwartz's story, and the murderer may just have been Schwartz??

Cheers, George

[FrankO]

But then it would be odd that Mortimer hadn't heard the tramp of his boots twice.

Hi George,

A little odd perhaps, but maybe she just didn’t hear it when Smith returned on the other side of the street (and she was perhaps further away from the street side of the house).

But supposing for a moment that Smith only went up Berner Street on that occasion (and not immediately down again, too), then which route would he have taken to arrive at the corner of Berner Street & Commercial Road at about 1 am (or a little later), without leaving out much (or anything at all) of what he ought to cover on his beat?

Also, I can't find the reference at this time, but I'm pretty sure Packer said that he saw them standing across from the club listening to the singing from 12:15 until he closed up at 12:30.

Seeing that he told different stories to the police, private detectives and press on different occasions, I don’t put much stock in what he said.

Cheers,
Frank

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If she was killed by a club member I can very well imagine that the members would be concerned at the reaction of the public, in the very same way as Warren when he erased the GSG. The report here:https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18890319.html paints them as a pretty rough group. So "if Schwartz lied" there may well have been an attempt to cover up with the "chased man" story and Schwartz's story, and the murderer may just have been Schwartz??

From that Times report:

At the Thames Police-court, before Mr. Saunders, LOUIS DIEMSHITZ [Diemschutz], an unlicensed hawker, of 40, Berner-street, St. George's; SAMUEL FRIEDMAN, cap blocker, of 81, Weaver-street, Spitalfields, and ISAAC KOZEBRODSKE, a machinist, of 40, Old Ford-road, Bethnal-green, were charged with being disorderly persons, and concerned together in assaulting Israel Sunshine, Isaac Solomons, Emanuel Snapper, and Emanuel Jacobs, of Berner-street, St. George's.

Was Samuel Friedman the Fridenthal referred to in Arbeter Fraint...?

Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

I'm not sure what the occupation cap blocker was about, but a few sites mention block engraver, block printer, and blockcutter...

BLOCKCUTTER or BLOCKER Made wooden blocks used in the hat trade or laid down the blocks on which a ships keel was laid. A blockcutter was also a person who made and cut the patterns into wooden blocks for textile printing.

Kozebrodski was a tailor's machinist. Arbeter Fraint says nothing else about Fridenthal, but Yaffa and Krantz were found by Gilyarovsky (presumably Kozebrodski) in the editors office, which was next door to the printing room. AF does not make it clear how Eygel or Fridenthal came to be by the body, or why Diemschitz is absent at that point.

Back to the Times.

Israel Sunshine, 119, Wentworth-dwellings, Whitechapel, said between 2 and 3 o'clock on Saturday afternoon he was walking down Berner-street.

The last name reminded me of this character - Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards: Nathan shine
Newer thread - Nathan Shine - reluctant witness? - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[JeffHamm]

We've strayed a little off the topic, "if schwartz lied", with the concern for the time of discovery. Iv'e just read Bromley's dissertation and he tends to agree with the possibilty that that Smith may have been a little latter than 1'oclock at the Berner Corner. Here's his final map:



He compiled it from Smith's inquest testimony:

"Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street]. The witness continued, - It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.".

Smith's times at Berner St match his beat time. Could it be that both times (12:30-12:35 and 1 o'clock) he was actually referring to times for his being at the Commercial/Berner corner?

The point he made was that if Smith's times were a little too early, Mortimer's times would be a better fit but Schwartz's times get very tight. He concludes, as do I, that as soon as Smith passed them Parcelman and Stride went straight to the yard. Why? Stride was a charwoman and there was about to be a big cleanup after the party in the club, in which case Parcelman may have said goodnight and departed. Maybe he needed to use the toilets in the yard? My speculations.

So Liz was likely killed by BSM if Schwartz didn't lie, or, Parcelman or someone from the club meeting if Schwartz did lie. Stride seems to have been with Parcelman since the Bricklayer's Arms at 11:00, seen by Marshall on their way to Ellen St and possibly by Packer. Brown saw the young couple spoken of and to by Mortimer. Liz was plied with flowers, hugs and kisses, and maybe grapes. She had made a sprecial effort with her appearance that night, and I believe she was with a beau. The Ripper's MO doesn't fit this courting behaviour. If BSM was a drunken slighted lover, Kidney comes to mind but the description doesn't fit, but several witnesses said Liz had been living in Fashion St with another man so maybe it was he.

If she was killed by a club member I can very well imagine that the members would be concerned at the reaction of the public, in the very same way as Warren when he erased the GSG. The report here:https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18890319.html paints them as a pretty rough group. So "if Schwartz lied" there may well have been an attempt to cover up with the "chased man" story and Schwartz's story, and the murderer may just have been Schwartz??

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I think your question about his 12:30-12:35 time being the corner of Berner and Commercial is entirely possible, given it would fit his testimony and he doesn't specify exactly where he was. It's probably only a minute or two walk to the crime scene from there, provided he doesn't do the west side-street patrol. So, if his beat takes him 25-30 minutes, then the earliest he would arrive is 12:55, and the latest is 1:05 (based upon his statements, and not including any margin of error here, just for simplicity). We can probably lean towards the latter part of that window, given that he states 1o'clock, but I believe he does indicate that's an estimation, which of course means it could err either way.

I think, once one starts to fit the other bits of information together, though, somewhere around 1:05 tends to slot in better with other testimony, which also doesn't require dismissing his testimony as 1:05ish is part of the window his statements creates.

Thanks for including the image of his beat. I've not seen that one before, and have been looking for it since I saw it was mentioned there was a map of it. Much obliged.

- Jeff

PS. I've roughly measured out the beat indicated, and it came to 0.958 miles (plus 280 feet, I missed a bit). At the regulation patrol speed of 2.5 mph, that would take about 24 minutes 26 seconds. However, looking at the maps, there are some other side streets that he probably was to patrol, which extend things by about 770 feet, which then translates to roughly 27 minutes 45 seconds at regulation speed. Given measurement error of the distances and the exact beat, etc, all of those would fit with his "25-30 minutes" stated times for a cycle.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We've strayed a little off the topic, "if schwartz lied", with the concern for the time of discovery. Iv'e just read Bromley's dissertation and he tends to agree with the possibilty that that Smith may have been a little latter than 1'oclock at the Berner Corner. Here's his final map:



He compiled it from Smith's inquest testimony:

"Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street]. The witness continued, - It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.".

Why would Smith's beat go down and up both Berner and Batty street, but only go down Christian street, and only go up Backchurch Lane? Bromley even has Smith going both ways along Sander street and Hampshire Court. This doesn't seem right to me. Perhaps Smith only described the clockwise version of his beat?

[JeffHamm]

Why would Smith's beat go down and up both Berner and Batty street, but only go down Christian street, and only go up Backchurch Lane? Bromley even has Smith going both ways along Sander street and Hampshire Court. This doesn't seem right to me. Perhaps Smith only described the clockwise version of his beat?

Trying to work out the beats is tricky. They were supposed to cover both sides of the street, and the little side streets and courts that go off them (and there's a few such things off Backchurch Lane that are not indicated in the drawn beat as shown, which extend it, possibly more than I've quickly plotted for my own interest). I'm not sure how they would deal with things like you mentioned, but either they had to sort of zig-zag up the street each round (extending it quite a bit), or for those streets they alternated which side they walked on each round. I'm sure there was a way they were meant to do it. Given the times he mentions, if we doubled those two distances (for him to do both sides each and every time) and include all the other side streets, then he probably couldn't do a circuit in 25 minutes, and his beat would take at least 30. There are those who are pretty expert on the patrol regulations, though, and if we're lucky we'll hear from them.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Given the times he mentions, if we doubled those two distances (for him to do both sides each and every time) and include all the other side streets, then he probably couldn't do a circuit in 25 minutes, and his beat would take at least 30. There are those who are pretty expert on the patrol regulations, though, and if we're lucky we'll hear from them.

Yes, it would seem to make it too long. However, would Smith really be going along Hampshire Court? Why not Queen's Court and Batty Court also?

Baxter: When you saw them talking, which way did you go?
Smith: Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road. In the centre of Berner-street were some courts which led into Backchurch-lane.

Did Smith go straight up Berner street to Commercial Road? It obviously seems so. So why mention the courts leading to Backchurch Lane? Is this what happened later...?

Smith got to the top of Berner street when he said he did - one o'clock. He saw people at the gates of #40, but this did not seem unusual. He started off down Berner street, but before reaching the yard, he turned into Sander street, and walked along it to the end - the exit into Backchurch Lane. He then walked back along Sander street and then continued down Berner street until reaching the scene, at about 1:05. By walking along Sander street, he missed seeing Ayliffe run to Blackwell and Kaye's surgery. After observing the deceased, he writes a report in his notebook, and leaves to get an ambulance just as Johnston arrives at 1:12.

[FrankO]

PS. I've roughly measured out the beat indicated, and it came to 0.958 miles (plus 280 feet, I missed a bit). At the regulation patrol speed of 2.5 mph, that would take about 24 minutes 26 seconds. However, looking at the maps, there are some other side streets that he probably was to patrol, which extend things by about 770 feet, which then translates to roughly 27 minutes 45 seconds at regulation speed. Given measurement error of the distances and the exact beat, etc, all of those would fit with his "25-30 minutes" stated times for a cycle.

Here's Smith's beat as it may be interpreted, Jeff. As you can see, it's almost 1.4 miles, which, walked at a speed of 2.5 mph, would have taken a little over 33 minutes. Not sure if it was actually supposed to be walked like that, but there you go.

One thing that strikes me are the rather long side streets on the western side of Backchurch Lane, which could explain why Smith didn't hear any shouting and why he wouldn't have been missed by Eagle, if Eagle did in fact run west along Commercial Road and did look down Backchurch Lane.

[GBinOz]

Here's Smith's beat as it may be interpreted, Jeff. As you can see, it's almost 1.4 miles, which, walked at a speed of 2.5 mph, would have taken a little over 33 minutes. Not sure if it was actually supposed to be walked like that, but there you go.

One thing that strikes me are the rather long side streets on the western side of Backchurch Lane, which could explain why Smith didn't hear any shouting and why he wouldn't have been missed by Eagle, if Eagle did in fact run west along Commercial Road and did look down Backchurch Lane.

Hi Frank,

Smith's inquest exposition of his beat did specify the perimeter and "taking all the interior streets" so perhaps the time for your proposal could be reduced by excluding the courts to the west of Church Lane. Another explanation for why Smith didn't hear the commotion was that he was near his u-turn at Gowers Walk, the furthest point from the yard.

I had the same thought as you regarding only going up Berner St when he saw Stride but I couldn't find a way for that to happen without a major departure from his stated beat.

With regard to Packer, there are contradictions as usual, and we must, as always, allow for the liberties taken by reporters with the interviews. When White first spoke to Packer the latter's attitude was that he saw nothing unusual. Selling grapes to a customer wasn't out of the ordinary because that's what Packer did. It only became unusual when witnesses started mentioning grapes, and I can't think why they would say they saw grapes if they didn't - they were saying this long before Packer told his story. Of course we don't know how much he was fed by the "private" detectives, but in Packers favour, he didn't identify Eddows as Stride we they tried to catch him out. For me, the biggest contradictions are the times he quoted.

Cheers, George

[Fiver]

He did state that at the inquest, but I do not believe it.

Your opinion is not evidence. So far you have provided evidence of Diemshutz lying about the time nor have you provided any credible reason for him to lie about the time.

He also stated he did not know what position Stride's hands were in, after having told the press the exact opposite. So he either lied to the press, or he lied to the coroner.

Or the press got it wrong. But you are unwilling to consider any other possibilty other than Diemschutz lied.

So what else did he lie about? Did he lie about the cart colliding with the body?

I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual. After I had passed through the gate which had been left open on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground.

Where are the collision marks on the victim?

Diemshutz did not say that at the Inquest. And "coming in contact" does not require a collision or running over the body, it could be the cartwheel brushing the body.

Did Diemschitz really go looking for police?

Spooner did not identify Deimshutz by name, but he is clearly the man returned withe Diemshutz and lifted up Stride's chin.

James Brown did not identify Deimshutz or Spooner by name, but his testimony supports both of theirs.

Or are Spooner and Brown now part of your conspiracy, lying to prop up Diemschutz' claim that he went looking for the police?

[Fiver]

Seven minutes after the discovery? So about 1:07 or 1:08? That would have Smith arriving at about 1:10 or 1:11. Was Smith's timing out by about a third of his beat time? If yes, then Fanny Mortimer was correct that he had passed her place at shortly before a quarter to one. If no, then Fanny likely did not go to the yard just after 1am, but was actually there by 1am.

If Smith arrived no earlier than 1:10, and Johnston arrived at about 1:12, then how did Smith manage to write a report in 1 minute...?

Smith never said he wrote a report between the time he reached the murder scene and the time Johnson arrived.

"I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police-station for the ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr. Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away." - PC Smith, 2 October 1888 Daily Telegraph

When I saw deceased lying on the ground I recognized her at once and made a report of what I had seen.

What he had seen included Stride standing with parcel man. Writing what he had seen, in his notebook, would take significant time.

"When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away." PC Smith, 6 October Times

You are making several assumptions. Smith said he recognized the victim "at once". He does not say he made a report "at once". He does not say he made a written instead of a verbal report. He doesn't say if he made the report in Dutfield's Yard or if he made the report once he returned to the yard.

But your biggest assumption is that it would take more than a minute or two for Smith to write down a description of the man he had seen with Elizabeth Stride.

[Fiver]

A further issue is that we are never told who Eagle went searching with? Why? Was it Kozebrodski? If yes, then this must be false...

A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived.

...and this is probably true...

Spooner: I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness arrived.

Who Eagle went with does nothing to prove that Diemshutz was lying>

Spooner's account supports Deimschutz. They do disagree on how long the time was between their arrival and the arrival of PC Lamb. That proves that one or both of Spooner and Diemschutz was mistaken about the time. It does not prove that either of the men was lying, let alone that Diemschutzied.

Also, why did Diemschitz say he met Spooner in Grove street...?

Spooner: On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman.

"We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate." - Edward Spooner

Spooner and Diemshutz agree completely on Diemschutz' movements in Fairclough Street.

They might disagree on where they met. We don't know if Spooner remained standing at Christian Street or if he walked east, meeting Diemschutz somewhere between Christian and Grove. If they met somewhere between Christian and Grove, then each man was remembering the intersection he had last been at. If Spooner was still at Christian, then that is an error on Diemschutz' part. It is not proof of a deliberate lie, let alone a conspiracy.