If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Frank,

That's what I proposed in my post #1912, but in post #1916 Dusty objected on the basis of "Then why would Lamb be covering the same ground about 10 minutes before him?"

I would have thought that PC's beat may have partially overlapped in places. Lamb seems to have been on the Harris clock side of Commercial Road as he quoted a time from that point to the point he was hailed.

Cheers, George

Was Lamb on a beat?

DT: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.

MA: I am not on the Berner-street beat. I am on the Commercial-road. I had passed the end of Berner-street perhaps ten minutes before I was called.

Those quotes would suggest not. MA continued:

C: When you were called in what direction were you going?
L: I was coming towards Berner-street. Police-constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty.

That man would be Smith, so again it seems Lamb was not on a beat, but nor was he on fixed point duty.
Lamb is also quoted saying:

I saw nothing suspicious at the time I passed Berner-street, before one o'clock. There was the usual number of rows on Saturday night, but nothing was suspicious.

I think Lamb was on general patrol along Commercial Road, and he seems to have known what the time was, when he passed Berner street.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Herlock,

Are you referring to Smith's beat shown on the Bromley map? On that map I would have thought him more likely to have gone down Berner St and back up on Batty St. Otherwise she would have heard him pass twice.

Or is this one more reason to question that report?

[GBinOz]

Or is this one more reason to question that report?

Bromley was using Smith's inquest testimony to define the perimeter of his beat but the "taking in the interior roads including Berner Street and Batty Street" is open to interpretation. I have difficulty in accepting that he would have gone down one side and up the otherside of these streets. However, the detail in Smith's descriptiption of Parcelman and Stride seem to me to be more than could be gained from across the road in a dark street, so I would think that he was on the eastern side of Berner St. The animated map I was previously using agreed with Smith saying he went up Berner St and this is why I originally thought he approached the Harris clock from the east. Remember that Mortimer heard the boots only once, but if we accept Bromley, that may argue against it being Smith. Bromley must have put a lot of time into his map as just reading the time analyses will take up more than one rainy afternoon.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Was Lamb on a beat?

I think Lamb was on general patrol along Commercial Road, and he seems to have known what the time was, when he passed Berner street.

Hi Andrew,

I suspect he was on patrol between two points in Commercial Road. I suppose that this could be described as a beat?

Just to clarify my name being taken in vein in some of the above posts, I have never suggested that Smith arrived at the yard at or before 1 o'clock. While I was obdurate in my opinion that Smith would have viewed the Harris clock when he stated that he was at that corner at 1 o'clock, at that time I was using the casebook animated map of Smith's beat and had not yet come across an inquest account where he stated his round. I am now using the Bromley map which suggests he was approaching from the west and would have had a view of the clock from the other side of the street, as did Diemshitz. From that angle, the best they could have seen would have been a side-on oblique view of the clockface, so I am now accepting Smith's time for being at that corner as an estimate of about 1 o'clock. However I am still not ready to accept Diemshitz having a sufficiently reasonable view of that clock to be testifying to an "exact" time. The best I can accede to with him is his original "about". If Smith's about 1 o'clock can be interpreted out to 1:07, then logically there must be room for Diemshitz's about 1 o'clock to be interpreted back to 12:53.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Or even 6 to 7 minutes. Yet if Smith really had gone for an ambulance after observing the deceased, then he need not have been at the yard for more than 2 minutes. So that would make his arrival time about 1:11, and as you have Lamb arriving no more than a minute before Smith, Lamb would therefore arrive at about 1:10. Lamb sent Eagle to Leman street, and according the Irish Times...

The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.

This points to Lamb arriving a few minutes after 1am. According to Spooner, that was about 5 minutes after his own arrival.

You are trying to overcomplicate things.

We know for a fact…..a fact……that Smith went for the ambulance just as Johnston arrived at the yard.

We know with a very high level of confidence that Johnston arrive at the yard 3 or 4 minutes before Dr Blackwell.

We can say with a very high level of confidence that Blackwell arrived at 1.16.

Therefore……

We can say that beyond a reasonable doubt Smith left to fetch an ambulance at around 1.12/1.13.

So the suggestion that he arrived at the yard at 1.00 is unlikely to the point of being obvious nonsense.

[Joshua Rogan]

From that angle, the best they could have seen would have been a side-on oblique view of the clockface, so I am now accepting Smith's time for being at that corner as an estimate of about 1 o'clock. However I am still not ready to accept Diemshitz having a sufficiently reasonable view of that clock to be testifying to an "exact" time. The best I can accede to with him is his original "about".

Hi George,
I'm not sure how you conclude that neither Louis D nor PC Smith would have had a reasonable view of the clock. Yes, Smith would have been walking along the right side pavement of Commercial Road, and thus had no chance to observe a clock in the shop-front window until virtually level with it, which he didn't do since he turned into Berner Street. But Louis would have been driving his cart on the left side of a fairly wide street and had to make a ninety degree turn to the right immediately beside Harris' window, giving him an almost head-on view of the window before he entered Berner Street.

[c.d.]

Is is reasonable to assume that a quick look at a clock will establish the exact time in someone's memory with total recall?

c.d.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,
I'm not sure how you conclude that neither Louis D nor PC Smith would have had a reasonable view of the clock. Yes, Smith would have been walking along the right side pavement of Commercial Road, and thus had no chance to observe a clock in the shop-front window until virtually level with it, which he didn't do since he turned into Berner Street. But Louis would have been driving his cart on the left side of a fairly wide street and had to make a ninety degree turn to the right immediately beside Harris' window, giving him an almost head-on view of the window before he entered Berner Street.

Hi Joshua,

I see you stipulated left side of the road. I'm Australian and we have the same traffic code. I'm not quite seeing "head-on view". At best a 45 degree angle would be my estimate - of the window. But we don't know that the clock was right on the window, or whether the window was set back from the corner masonry as I have seen in some of the photos from that time. The clock could have been several feet back from the glass. Suffice to say that I'm not yet convinced of Louis "exact" time, or that he even looked at the clock. The clock was only added to his account at the inquest.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was Lamb on a beat?

DT: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.

MA: I am not on the Berner-street beat. I am on the Commercial-road. I had passed the end of Berner-street perhaps ten minutes before I was called.

Those quotes would suggest not. MA continued:

C: When you were called in what direction were you going?
L: I was coming towards Berner-street. Police-constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty.

That man would be Smith, so again it seems Lamb was not on a beat, but nor was he on fixed point duty.
Lamb is also quoted saying:

I saw nothing suspicious at the time I passed Berner-street, before one o'clock. There was the usual number of rows on Saturday night, but nothing was suspicious.

I think Lamb was on general patrol along Commercial Road, and he seems to have known what the time was, when he passed Berner street.

To me “I am not on the Berner Street beat. I am on the Commercial Road” is the same as someone saying “I’m was not on early duty. I was on late.”

The word ‘duty’ wasn’t used in the second sentence but we know that’s what he meant. Therefore surely Lamb meant “I am on the Commercial Road beat.”

[FrankO]

I have difficulty in accepting that he would have gone down one side and up the otherside of these streets.

I'm not sure, George, but one good reason for that would be that the beat officer had to cover all the different side streets, alleys and courts on both sides of one street. So, if he went down a street and covered all the small side streets on one side, he could only cover all the small side streets on the other side by going up on the same street but on the opposite side.

Looking at it this way would also explain the, otherwise remaining somewhat mysterious answer by Smith that was carried in the Times of 6 October. Regarding the man & woman Smith saw in Berner Street, the coroner asked: "When you saw them talking, which way did you go?". Smith's answer: "Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road. In the centre of Berner-street were some courts which led into Backchurch-lane." It seems that Smith was saying: I was going straight up Berner Street, because there were some courts which led into Backchurch Lane that I still had to check.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

I'm not sure, George, but one good reason for that would be that the beat officer had to cover all the different side streets, alleys and courts on both sides of one street. So, if he went down a street and covered all the small side streets on one side, he could only cover all the small side streets on the other side by going up on the same street but on the opposite side.

Looking at it this way would also explain the, otherwise remaining somewhat mysterious answer by Smith that was carried in the Times of 6 October. Regarding the man & woman Smith saw in Berner Street, the coroner asked: "When you saw them talking, which way did you go?". Smith's answer: "Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road. In the centre of Berner-street were some courts which led into Backchurch-lane." It seems that Smith was saying: I was going straight up Berner Street, because there were some courts which led into Backchurch Lane that I still had to check.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the reference to the Times coverage. I noticed that the Reid specifically asked Smith "Did you see these people more than once?" and he replied no. This would imply that he had come from Fairclough St rather than having done a U-turn at the bottom of Berner St and explain why Mortimer only heard the sound of boots once, presuming the boots she heard were those on Smith.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the reference to the Times coverage. I noticed that the Reid specifically asked Smith "Did you see these people more than once?" and he replied no. This would imply that he had come from Fairclough St rather than having done a U-turn at the bottom of Berner St and explain why Mortimer only heard the sound of boots once, presuming the boots she heard were those on Smith.

Cheers, George

I have no answer to this one George so it could well be the case that Smith went Berner to Fairclough then back but I agree that it sounds a little strange that Smith doesn’t mention or hint at this double pass. I’ve read all of the dissertations on here at some point but I didn’t remember Gavin Bromley’s even though I think it’s been referenced in one of the recent Stride threads. It’s a pity that Fanny Mortimer didn’t specify how long after hearing Smith she went onto her doorstep because if it was ‘directly’ after hearing him we’d have to ask why she didn’t see him?

[FrankO]

I noticed that the Reid specifically asked Smith "Did you see these people more than once?" and he replied no. This would imply that he had come from Fairclough St rather than having done a U-turn at the bottom of Berner St and explain why Mortimer only heard the sound of boots once, presuming the boots she heard were those on Smith.

Hi George,

Yes, it could imply that he had come from Fairclough Street, but certainly not necessarily. It could just as well be that Smith didn't see the couple on his way down the eastern side of Berner Street, because they had been standing in some dark corner or in either Batty Gardens or Hamsphire Court when he passed and had only come into view after he passed.

It's also possible that he covered Batty Street and Berner Street from Fairclough Street instead of Commercial Road, meaning that he entered them from the south side and checked one side of the street (including side streets, alleys & courts) going up and the other side going down. But in that case, he would not have completed (almost) one whole beat when he arrived at the corner at about 1 o'clock. He would have completed a whole round arriving at the corner of Fairclough Street and Berner Street.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

I have no answer to this one George so it could well be the case that Smith went Berner to Fairclough then back but I agree that it sounds a little strange that Smith doesn’t mention or hint at this double pass. I’ve read all of the dissertations on here at some point but I didn’t remember Gavin Bromley’s even though I think it’s been referenced in one of the recent Stride threads. It’s a pity that Fanny Mortimer didn’t specify how long after hearing Smith she went onto her doorstep because if it was ‘directly’ after hearing him we’d have to ask why she didn’t see him?

Hi Herlock,

This is from the Daily new 1 October:

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.".

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Yes, it could imply that he had come from Fairclough Street, but certainly not necessarily. It could just as well be that Smith didn't see the couple on his way down the eastern side of Berner Street, because they had been standing in some dark corner or in either Batty Gardens or Hamsphire Court when he passed and had only come into view after he passed.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

But then it would be odd that Mortimer hadn't heard the tramp of his boots twice. Also, I can't find the reference at this time, but I'm pretty sure Packer said that he saw them standing across from the club listening to the singing from 12:15 until he closed up at 12:30.

Cheers, George