If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Smith gave no indication that his final yard to yard round took longer than normal...

I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock

True enough but he wouldn’t have mentioned everything that he’d done and if, and I’m only saying ‘if’’, he’d have stopped to talk to a fellow Constable he might have kept quiet about it rather get a telling off.

[FrankO]

So if Smith was on beat, where was he coming from when he approached the Commercial Rd/ Berner St corner?

Hi George,

Going by Smith's own testimony as written in the Morning Advertiser of 6 October (see below), he was walking west along Commercial Road when he reached the corner of Berner Street. It would make perfect sense that he came from the west, because otherwise it would become quite odd that neither of the 2 search parties formed by the Jewish club members didn't find him and that he himself heard no cries of "Murder" and "Police."

"I went from the corner of Gower’s-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street to Fairclough-street, Grove-street, and back to Church-lane, up there to Commercial-road again."

The best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

. It was Ayliffe that ran to the doctors, of course - that was my mistake that Frank corrected me on in a later post.
The reason Smith cannot arrive one minute after Lamb, is given by Smith...

I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police."

Smith was out hearing range of Lamb's whistle. Smith must have arrived at least 3 minutes after Lamb and Ayliffe. Possibly 4 and conceivably 5. So if Lamb arrived at 1:05, then Smith arrived at about 1:09.

By the way, Collins arrived before Smith, not after.

Looking at Smith’s route I fail to see how any part of it would have left him out of hearing range of a police whistle. That he didn’t hear Diemschutz is neither here nor there.

If Smith arrived a matter of seconds or a minute after Lamb had got there then Lamb blew his whistle with Smith in the yard with him.

And as per my post #1894 I’d ask again……if Smith got to the yard at 1.00 how can it be reasonable that he waited around for 12 or 13 minutes before going for an ambulance? This also points to Smith arriving at the yard after 1.05.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Do not give up on Israel Schwartz or you may find yourself cast into the Ripperological Wilderness.

You still haven’t explained your justification for labelling me as someone stuck in some ‘old established theories’ club? As I said…..Stride might or might not have been a victim - interruption might or might not have taken place - BS Man might or might not have been the killer - BS Man might or might not have been the ripper,- the GSG might or might not have been written by the ripper - the ripper might or might not have written a letter or letters - I don’t know who the ripper was - I couldn’t say for certain how many victims there were.

Please explain how these are the opinions of a man fixed on established theories.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can you quote PC Smith saying he arrived at the yard at or before 1am? Can you quote a poster saying this? Or has this suggestion been 'assigned' to certain posters, by yourself?

A bit of a nitpick of course. My apologies if I misunderstood but I thought that George had suggested the possibility of Smith arriving slightly before 1.00.

Only if we have a high level of confidence in the accuracy of Blackwell's pocket watch.

And why wouldn’t we assume that a Doctor regularly checked that his watch wa accurate?

The reason for Smith remaining at the yard for some time, after he identified the victim as the woman he had seen previously, has been put in front of you several times before.

“When I got there I saw Constables 12 H. R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell’s assistant came just as I was going away.”

No messing around for 12-13 minutes.

This points to Smith arriving after 1.05 (which is when we know Lamb arrived - fits Johnston/Blackwell/Spooner.)

[Herlock Sholmes]

There are only two ways this could work:

one: someone had to have seen the search party run along and back Fairclough street, then hung around the Christian street intersection, at least until Collins arrived, who then stands at the corner until said person tells them they are wanted. Collins then runs along to Berner street, apparently without any further verbal indication as to where he should run.

two: Brown was completely mistaken about Spooner being a constable, and Collins was never at that corner. Why someone would tell Spooner that he was wanted, is unclear. This scenario also leaves unanswered why Brown made no mention of the 'constable' being with a woman.

It seems very clear to me what the situation was.

When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased.

The screams ceased. There was a short period of no noise.

The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

Spooner stood at the same intersection, and his story is almost identical...

After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard, adjoining No. 40, Berner-street.

Spooner lived at 26 Fairclough street. What was the point of him and his alleged lady friend walking almost to his place, only to stand talking at the next corner, for nearly half an hour?

Then there is the whistle issue.

As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay. Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

So the only person Spooner met on his way to Berner street, just happened to be someone he knew, who had come out of his house after hearing a police whistle. Brown seems to have perceived Spooner as being a policeman. Who blew the whistle?

Unless Spooner was wearing a policeman’s helmet the suggestion is a non-starter. He couldn’t possibly, under any circumstances, have been mistaken for a Constable.

[FrankO]

>> I agree, though, that Smith missed seeing any PC running up Berner Street.<<

Not just Berner, but Commercial as well.

Which means Smith's time was well out or Ayliffe took another route. My guess that might be Batty Gardens. Or alternatively, Smith came through Batty.

Since there's nothing to suggest that either Ayliffe or Smith took other routes to the yard than entering Berner Street at the top, I think it's a fair assumption that Smith was out on his timing, Dusty.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why didn’t Smith mention going up and down Berner Street if that’s what he did? Would Mortimer have heard him pass from inside her house if he was on the opposite side of the street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Looking at Smith’s route I fail to see how any part of it would have left him out of hearing range of a police whistle. That he didn’t hear Diemschutz is neither here nor there.

Smith was unaware there had been an incident until he arrived at the yard.

If Smith arrived a matter of seconds or a minute after Lamb had got there then Lamb blew his whistle with Smith in the yard with him.

If Smith arrived a matter of seconds or a minute after Lamb had got there then Lamb would have passed Smith as he and Ayliffe ran down Berner street.

And as per my post #1894 I’d ask again……if Smith got to the yard at 1.00 how can it be reasonable that he waited around for 12 or 13 minutes before going for an ambulance? This also points to Smith arriving at the yard after 1.05.

If Smith got the yard at 1am, then when did he get to the top of Berner street?

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Going by Smith's own testimony as written in the Morning Advertiser of 6 October (see below), he was walking west along Commercial Road when he reached the corner of Berner Street. It would make perfect sense that he came from the west, because otherwise it would become quite odd that neither of the 2 search parties formed by the Jewish club members didn't find him and that he himself heard no cries of "Murder" and "Police."

"I went from the corner of Gower’s-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street to Fairclough-street, Grove-street, and back to Church-lane, up there to Commercial-road again."

The best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

That's what I proposed in my post #1912, but in post #1916 Dusty objected on the basis of "Then why would Lamb be covering the same ground about 10 minutes before him?"

I would have thought that PC's beat may have partially overlapped in places. Lamb seems to have been on the Harris clock side of Commercial Road as he quoted a time from that point to the point he was hailed.

Cheers, George

[FrankO]

Why didn’t Smith mention going up and down Berner Street if that’s what he did?

He sort of did, Michael, although not in one go.

As you know, he started his deposition by saying that he was "at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock". So, it seems that he would have entered Berner Street from there, also on his normal beat. And then, in the Times of 6 October, talking about seeing Stride & companion at around 12.30 - 12.35, he, in answer to a question, said he was going "straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road" when he saw the couple talking together.

The best,
Frank

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A bit of a nitpick of course. My apologies if I misunderstood but I thought that George had suggested the possibility of Smith arriving slightly before 1.00.

It's very simple - George agrees with Smith.

And why wouldn’t we assume that a Doctor regularly checked that his watch wa accurate?

Compared to what?

“When I got there I saw Constables 12 H. R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell’s assistant came just as I was going away.”

No messing around for 12-13 minutes.

Or even 6 to 7 minutes. Yet if Smith really had gone for an ambulance after observing the deceased, then he need not have been at the yard for more than 2 minutes. So that would make his arrival time about 1:11, and as you have Lamb arriving no more than a minute before Smith, Lamb would therefore arrive at about 1:10. Lamb sent Eagle to Leman street, and according the Irish Times...

The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.

This points to Lamb arriving a few minutes after 1am. According to Spooner, that was about 5 minutes after his own arrival.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Unless Spooner was wearing a policeman’s helmet the suggestion is a non-starter. He couldn’t possibly, under any circumstances, have been mistaken for a Constable.

Yes the whole thing is just a big coincidence, and so some mystery person must have called Collins to the yard, while Collins was standing at the corner. Apparently this mystery person did not misapprehend the search, for a chase. So who did?

[FrankO]

That's what I proposed in my post #1912, but in post #1916 Dusty objected on the basis of "Then why would Lamb be covering the same ground about 10 minutes before him?"

I would have thought that PC's beat may have partially overlapped in places. Lamb seems to have been on the Harris clock side of Commercial Road as he quoted a time from that point to the point he was hailed.

Hi George,

Although Dusty's question is an interesting one, I think it's irrelevant, simply because we just can't answer it. The important thing is that Lamb's evidence strongly suggests that he was, in fact, on the same side of Commercial Road as Smith was.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

Why didn’t Smith mention going up and down Berner Street if that’s what he did? Would Mortimer have heard him pass from inside her house if he was on the opposite side of the street?

Hi Herlock,

Are you referring to Smith's beat shown on the Bromley map? On that map I would have thought him more likely to have gone down Berner St and back up on Batty St. Otherwise she would have heard him pass twice. If he went down the eastern side of Berner St he would have been able to provide a more accurate description of Parcelman and Stride than from the western side in a dark street. Niel heard Thain at a distance of 120 yards at Bucks Row so it shouldn't have been a problem for Mortimer to hear Smith, or any one else in hob-nail boots, on the other side of the road.

Cheers, George