If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

This sounds like a Herlock Sholmes post. He often conflates 'this' explanation, with 'this' situation.

By the way, this is the situation ...

... the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story.

Pointing out that they do not have BS man to interrogate, does not provide an explanation.

You obviously mean a post that’s made from planet Earth.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm genuinely flattered. Thank you for the compliment.

I'm happy to leave you to work out what you think was going on and why, and what sources you prefer to believe.

I'm sticking with my own conclusion that any real doubts the police may have had about Schwartz's story concerned his interpretation - and his translator's interpretation - of what he had witnessed, due to his lack of English and differences in the culture.

The newspapers were, and are, notorious for misinterpreting plain English, or misrepresenting/misquoting their sources, often on purpose but not always. They just can't seem to help themselves. So where there are discrepancies between a police and press statement or report, it would be folly to build any theories on the latter.

Love,

Caz
X

I’m flattered too Caz.

[caz]

This sounds like a Herlock Sholmes post.

I'm genuinely flattered. Thank you for the compliment.

I'm happy to leave you to work out what you think was going on and why, and what sources you prefer to believe.

I'm sticking with my own conclusion that any real doubts the police may have had about Schwartz's story concerned his interpretation - and his translator's interpretation - of what he had witnessed, due to his lack of English and differences in the culture.

The newspapers were, and are, notorious for misinterpreting plain English, or misrepresenting/misquoting their sources, often on purpose but not always. They just can't seem to help themselves. So where there are discrepancies between a police and press statement or report, it would be folly to build any theories on the latter.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm not sure I claimed it did 'matter'. I only observed that witness descriptions are notoriously unreliable, and whether the police arrested one, two or half a dozen men on the say-so of Schwartz [and/or Pipeman if he came forward], they were still left without a BS man to interrogate. They would therefore be needing additional information in order to take their enquiries into the witnessed assault any further. It's pretty standard language and the police would still be on the lookout for any fresh clues. It may even have been said to let BS man think the police had moved on and he had got away with it.

I don't really see the problem with any of this.

Love,

Caz
X

This sounds like a Herlock Sholmes post. He often conflates 'this' explanation, with 'this' situation.

By the way, this is the situation ...

... the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story.

Pointing out that they do not have BS man to interrogate, does not provide an explanation.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Interesting, NBFN, but this would appear to dismiss the police as if they were not there, and played no active role in trying to identify and question anyone who presented as an 'obvious candidate' for the murder, or in fact any potential suspect or person of interest.

Actually, the police play a big role in my thinking, which partly centres on the identification and questioning of Schwartz's second man - aka Pipeman. In the simplest terms, here is the issue.

Pipeman is not included the Police Gazette's Oct 19 issue, regarding apprehensions sought for murder. To have cleared Pipeman as having no involvement in the Berner street crime, I think it reasonable to suppose that Pipeman was identified, questioned, and if not immediately, soon cleared. Assuming this to be true, that would seem to validate Schwartz's story. Yet the Star's reporting suggests otherwise. According to that report, Leman street had developed severe doubts about Schwartz, no later than the Tuesday morning. Considering that Schwartz did not go to the police until late on the Sunday afternoon, the gap between the two arrests mentioned by the Star, and Schwartz's apparent loss of credibility, seems to be in the region of 24 hours, or less. Furthermore, the reference to "additional facts" being the requirement for further investigation based on Schwartz's statement, seems to suggest that the statements and/or information obtained on one or both of the men arrested, were the sole source of Leman street's doubts.

Surely it was not the word of one or two men, versus another, that was all it took to undermine Schwartz. Some critical piece of the puzzle seems to be missing. However, we can begin the search for that piece of the puzzle, by asking; who was in a position to validate or invalidate Schwartz, if not Pipeman? So if Pipeman is assumed to have been identified, then what was so convincing about his 'side of the story'? Consider that if Pipeman were the prisoner referred to by the Star, Oct 1 & 2, it had been 24 hours at most since he had this problem ...

This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

Evidently, the inquiries resulted in some extraordinary facts being obtained.

The police had the same, and arguably a lot more information than we do today, and Goldstein, to use your example, presented himself to the police to give an account of his whereabouts and movements around the time of Stride's murder. It doesn't matter if he was late to the party, or advised to go by someone else, because such matters would only have made the police keener to check his movements and make sure he wasn't being evasive or shifty. Certainly, they'd have checked on any associations he had with the club, and when he last attended, if at all. The idea that they simply took his word for everything he said without question seems absurd.

Love,

Caz
X

Right, and no one who (had) read this post, could conclude that I suppose Goldstein was taken on trust.

If the heading south from Spectacle Alley occurs first, then the round trip time is not the issue. Getting Goldstein into the yard, unseen, is the problem.

Okay, here is another theory. The police would obviously have read the EN interview, and determined that Goldstein's whereabouts had to be determined not only by investigations at the coffee house, but also at Goldstein's residence on Christian street. Had Goldstein left 22 and gone to the club, after having been seen by Fanny, then someone at 22 may well have been aware of that. So that person or persons had a choice - to provide Goldstein with an alibi, or tell the truth and effectively have him turned over to gentile justice. They chose the former.

[caz]

Reckon BS man was muscle for Stride who was to meet Sutton in the yard for a blackmail pay off.
Sutton was on the top floor of the Club watching proceedings below.
BS man leaves and returns,pulling Stride from the yard.He then leaves for good.
Schwartz hears "Lips,see"..Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia
Beer shop owner is preparing a knock off pipe of tobacco and is cleaning his pipe.
When the coast is clear,Sutton is out the front door and into the yard.
He offers Stride the cachous,which she takes out of his hand.Last thing she ever does.

I'm beginning to think this has more legs than the guilty Goldstein theory.

Any idea which publication might have caught Sutton's eye with the slogan: HAVE YOU SEEN THE DEVIL?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Did the police become despondent, and give up on Schwartz merely because the first two arrests hadn't resulted in any progress? No, I don't think so. Besides, if the two men had satisfied the police as to their whereabouts, why would it matter that the two descriptions (one hypothetical), were somewhat at odds?

I'm not sure I claimed it did 'matter'. I only observed that witness descriptions are notoriously unreliable, and whether the police arrested one, two or half a dozen men on the say-so of Schwartz [and/or Pipeman if he came forward], they were still left without a BS man to interrogate. They would therefore be needing additional information in order to take their enquiries into the witnessed assault any further. It's pretty standard language and the police would still be on the lookout for any fresh clues. It may even have been said to let BS man think the police had moved on and he had got away with it.

I don't really see the problem with any of this.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Okay I will try it, but the theory I currently have in mind seems even less related to sequences of events, than the above. Perhaps the problem is that I'm not thinking about events the way everyone else seems to. My impression is that things are meant to work like this:

For each murder, we start with a broad outline of what happened, and who was involved. This broad outline has two important characteristics. It forms the basis for discussion of each murder, and is therefore almost universally accepted. The other crucial element is that the broad outline is neutral with respect to everyone involved. No one can be implicated by the basic story. So for example, we can't have Goldstein walking out of Dutfield's Yard at 5 minutes to 1am as part of the accepted story, because that would make him the obvious candidate for the murder, and that would violate the principle of neutrality. The problem with that is obvious enough; at some point neutrality has to be 'breached', if the idea is to identify the WM. Yet the unwritten rules don't seem to allow for that.

Interesting, NBFN, but this would appear to dismiss the police as if they were not there, and played no active role in trying to identify and question anyone who presented as an 'obvious candidate' for the murder, or in fact any potential suspect or person of interest.

The police had the same, and arguably a lot more information than we do today, and Goldstein, to use your example, presented himself to the police to give an account of his whereabouts and movements around the time of Stride's murder. It doesn't matter if he was late to the party, or advised to go by someone else, because such matters would only have made the police keener to check his movements and make sure he wasn't being evasive or shifty. Certainly, they'd have checked on any associations he had with the club, and when he last attended, if at all. The idea that they simply took his word for everything he said without question seems absurd.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Haven't you been arguing that Mortimer saw Goldstein headed north "previously" to the sighting of him headed south?

Cheers, George

Well no, because south was previously, as per that quote, and north was just before she turned in, as per the interview quote, and Dew's comments.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The cachous were astringent medication for Stride's lips,and other parts of her anatomy.

Was she also using lips cream?

[DJA]

Picture from the Internet,not mine.

Ex smoker.

[GBinOz]

Nice Rodgers pipe tools Dave. They're worth a fortune now, and you have two. Do you still indulge in the brown leaf?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

If the heading south from Spectacle Alley occurs first, then the round trip time is not the issue. Getting Goldstein into the yard, unseen, is the problem.

Haven't you been arguing that Mortimer saw Goldstein headed north "previously" to the sighting of him headed south?

Cheers, George

[DJA]

The cachous were astringent medication for Stride's lips,and other parts of her anatomy.

Catechu - Wikipedia

[Mark J D]

Reckon BS man was muscle for Stride who was to meet Sutton in the yard for a blackmail pay off. Sutton was on the top floor of the Club watching proceedings below. BS man leaves and returns,pulling Stride from the yard.He then leaves for good. Schwartz hears "Lips,see". Beer shop owner is preparing a knock off pipe of tobacco and is cleaning his pipe. When the coast is clear,Sutton is out the front door and into the yard. He offers Stride the cachous,which she takes out of his hand.Last thing she ever does.

-- Damn, that's ingenious! Nice scenario, bro!

M.