If Schwartz Lied ...

[DJA]

[QUOTE=NotBlamedForNothing;n783980]

Let's step through the logic of this, and see where it leads ...


So if Pipeman did see the assault and reported it, we are faced with a very big issue. According to Schwartz, Pipeman ran from the scene

[DJA]

[JeffHamm]

If Schwartz was not wholly believed, and this was merely to do with not 'believing' his interpretations - which would be an odd way of putting it - then what are we to make of the prisoner in the Star report, who is being held pending inquiries ...?

The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

So he was not wholly believed either. So being consistent about this, he too must have interpreted things incorrectly, according to the police. So that's two men who couldn't get it right, according to men who weren't there. So what was the prisoner's error(s) of perception? Perhaps he was under the impression that he was chasing the murderer along Fairclough street. But as we all believe Schwartz, that can't be right. So what element of his statement was not wholly accepted? I can't imagine he claimed to be holding a knife, rather than a clay pipe.

The way Schwartz testifies sounds a lot to me like he had no idea if Pipeman was an accomplice or not ...

Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.

That would seem to weaken the argument that Leman street's doubts over the truth of Schwartz's story, are just doubts over his interpretations.

That statement is saying the doubts are about his interpretations. It's not doubting there were two men, it's showing that during questioning Schwartz's confidence that Pipeman was whom B.S. shouted Lipski at wavered. As in, Abberline asked him are you sure he wasn't shouting Lipski at you? (meaning Scwhartz), and at that point a possibility that may not have occurred to Schwartz before was presented and he responds "Well, I hadn't thought of that, maybe it was", at which point the police have every reason to doubt Schwartz's original statement. Obviously I don't know the exact flow of the interview, but that sort of thing sounds like what is being summarised here given Abberline also tells us he questioned Schwartz on that point quite carefully.

As you say, witnesses can be wrong or misleading, so this argument is applicable to all of them. "If Cross is to be believed ...", "If Richardson is to be believed ...", "If Hutchinson is to be believed ...". Why does Schwartz alone gets this treatment, if the police report leaves no doubt that his statement should be viewed as true?

I don't know, reports are written with different phrasing all the time because that's how language and writing worked prior to computers and form letters. In the end, it doesn't change the meaning of what was written, and what was written indicates that Schwartz's statement was not to be doubted (at least with regards to the events described, if not, as we learn from other reports, all of his interpretations about the relationship between B.S. and Pipeman).

So did the lower ranked police possibly make a mistake, in releasing the prisoner? Working with less information, how could they know for sure if this man's story was true? One day his story is not wholly accepted, the next day it is, apparently owing to inquiries. So how does one inquire as to whether a man was chasing another man from the scene, or fleeing the scene in the same direction as another man fleeing the scene?

Schwartz was never, to my understanding, a prisoner. Are you conflating Schwartz with the person arrested based upon Schwartz's statement?

There are all sorts of ways to investigate a person's statement depending upon what they said, and the circumstances. Given we don't know either of those then we could make something up I suppose, but in the end, we have the police indicating that the person was cleared to their satisfaction. And we have nothing to base an evaluation of that decision on.

Right, so Abberline's involvement and Schwartz's apparent non involvement in the inquest, seems to be a huge enigma.

I don't know, but huge enigma sounds a bit of hyperbole to me. I think Abberline was known to be an active investigator, and while he wouldn't have interviewed every Tom, Dick, and Harry that was brought in, I think he played more than just an administrative role at times.

Yet if she had been called, I dare say she could have cleared up a few issues. For example, you're claiming to know that she was outside for a brief period, but that is not what she is quoted as saying. Evidently, Fanny Mortimer is not to be believed.

Fanny Mortimer's descriptions of what she did vary from newspaper to newspaper, so one can either pick and choose from those, or recognize that her statements are contradictory and so do not form a reliable base upon which to build a case.

This does not explain the transition we see in the Star, across the Monday and Tuesday editions. On Monday, Schwartz was believed, they are acting on his statement, two men have been arrested, and the statement of one of them is not wholly believed. The next day, both men have evidently been released, doubts have now been transferred to Schwartz, and they are no longer acting on his statement. This transition would not be evident if it were merely an issue of interpretation, as this issue is owing to Abberline's interviewing of Schwartz, which occurred on the Sunday.

The Star is not well know for its accuracy, and we know the police did continue to follow up on the Lipski families. However, if we go with the above, it might be they arrested two men, both fitting the description of Pipeman, both were able to clear themselves as being elsewhere, and so actual Pipeman was not found but they realised the descriptions were too general that they couldn't just keep arreseting all tall men in the area.

Only Pipeman could have possibly been named Lipski, as we know Schwartz's name, and Pipeman was the only other man on the street (other than BS, who used the word). So if Pipeman was identified and cleared, it would seem illogical to still be looking for a man named Lipski.

Indeed, which does bring into question if the indications that Pipeman might have been located is sound - it has been suggested he may have been, but I agree that if so, the police would have discontinued their search for Lipski families. I'm not sure of the date when Pipeman is possibily identified though, so I suppose if it corresponds to the termination of the search for Lipski's then your above argument would explain why.

Well, it should not be popular, regardless of Abberline's opinion. If Lipski was directed at Pipeman, as suggested by Schwartz, then at least we have a vaguely plausible reason for Pipeman to have followed Schwartz - he was seeing off the 'intruding Jew' (this is more or less what we see in the Star report). Having watched the incident while causally lighting his pipe, why would Pipeman then run off like a startled rabbit, without so much as the prompt of 'Lipski!', pointed in his direction, to send him on his way? The popular belief that Pipeman fled, is a belief in a causeless effect.

Again, I don't follow your reasoning. At issue is the police belief, so Abberline's opinion, which is a belief, is what we're talking about, and Abberline's opinion was that Schwartz was probably wrong and Lipski was not shouted at Pipeman but at Schwartz. It says nothing about whether or not the police belief is correct, only that we know they were of the belief that Schwartz was not.

And if Pipeman was not the one Lipski was shouted at, then Pipeman leaving the scene at the same time Schwartz did does not mean Pipeman was in any way chasing or following Schwartz even if Schwartz interpreted him to be doing so.

"The truth of the man's statement..." is the relevant thread.

The apparent discovery of Pipeman, and the apparently contradictory ongoing search for a possible Mr Lipski, has already been discussed, but I wonder if the police supposed there might have been another man on the street at the time, that Schwartz failed to mention (to them). Considering the differences in Pipeman and Knifeman's location, device in hand, and behaviour (flight vs aggression), I don't think that suggestion is far-fetched.

Knifeman only appears in the newspaper, and appears to be some sort of garbled version of Pipeman. That garbling may have been intentional or not, but in either case there is no reason to believe there was a knifeman. Otherwise, in one telling Schwartz mentions knifeman but not pipeman, and when he mentions pipeman he omits knifeman, and coincidently, when knifeman is present and pipeman absent it is knifeman who shouts Lipski at B.S. but when Pipeman is present and knifeman absent it is B.S. who shouts Lipski at pipeman.

Given the options, I go with the statement given to the police involving pipeman and assign knifeman to newspaper fiction.

At least you are now acknowledging that Schwartz saw something, and that at least Pipeman was there. You also seem to believe there was even a 3rd person present, knifeman.

And you argue that FM is reliable and to be believed, but she saw none of this.

So when do you think all of these people were present that FM missed?

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Pipeman identified himself to the police, we may presume that he was able to confirm an assault on a woman outside the club, but he was hardly likely to confirm Schwartz's initial belief, that Pipeman was an accomplice who chased him away!

Let's step through the logic of this, and see where it leads ...

If the prisoner in the Star report was not wholly believed (at least initially), then obviously he was partially believed, and to be partially believed, he must have been on the street at the time - it was not, say, that the police believed him that he was down the pub at the time, but didn't believe (agree) which pub it was.

If Schwartz is to be believed, then we may presume that Schwartz was correct when stating that Pipeman was the only other man on the street.

Ergo, the Prisoner = Pipeman

Now if this man were able to confirm the assault on Stride outside the club, then we really have to wonder if it were owing to Pipeman, that the following report appeared in a few of the papers.

The People, Oct 7: The police authorities who have the inquiries with respect to the murders in hand, have received a statement with regard to the murder in Berner street that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground, but that it being thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, no notice was taken of it.

Recently I suggested that it may have been Fanny Mortimer was gave the statement referred to. That suggestion was rejected. So Pipeman would seem to be the obvious candidate, and arguably the only candidate, as Schwartz gave a different age for BS man, and more importantly he stopped at the gateway to watch what was going on.

So if Pipeman did see the assault and reported it, we are faced with a very big issue. According to Schwartz, Pipeman ran from the scene, and most of us seem to agree that he fled, rather than chase away that 'intruding Jew'. A fleeing man would not have returned to the scene.

Houston, we have a problem with our logic: How did Pipeman know that the woman seen thrown to the ground, was also the murdered woman? He would have to have gone to the yard to find that out.

The Star tells us: This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

What inquiries could they be making? That he was there is a given - he placed himself at the scene. Without BS man's input, the running versus chasing thing cannot be inquired into. Which leaves what? Obviously enough, it leaves Pipeman's presence in Dutfield's Yard, to be inquired into.

D-I Reid (inquest): As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched, and their clothes and hands examined. There were 28 of them.

One of those names and addresses was Pipeman's. Reid effectively gave Pipeman an almost perfect alibi. Otherwise the not wholly believing of Pipeman could not be resolved, as it would have been one man's word against another, and the men would have ended up in court.

This logic is only valid if it resulted in a loss of Schwartz's credibility, and that is exactly what we see ...

In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And we know the police held lots of information back from the press, and of course still do. So the Star's reporting is based upon less information. Also, the Star is very vague about things, and simply says that Schwartz is not wholly believed, it doesn't say he was entirely dismissed. That wording is entirely consistent with what we do know about police thinking, which is that Schwartz was not wholly believed - they thought he got the Lipski thing wrong and so they were not convinced that Pipeman was involved as an accomplice the way Schwartz testifies. We know that's police thinking about Schwartz's statement, and that is entirely consistent with what the Star reports - he wasn't wholly believed, but neither was he wholly dismissed. There's no conflict, therefore, that requires any further explanation.

If Schwartz was not wholly believed, and this was merely to do with not 'believing' his interpretations - which would be an odd way of putting it - then what are we to make of the prisoner in the Star report, who is being held pending inquiries ...?

The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

So he was not wholly believed either. So being consistent about this, he too must have interpreted things incorrectly, according to the police. So that's two men who couldn't get it right, according to men who weren't there. So what was the prisoner's error(s) of perception? Perhaps he was under the impression that he was chasing the murderer along Fairclough street. But as we all believe Schwartz, that can't be right. So what element of his statement was not wholly accepted? I can't imagine he claimed to be holding a knife, rather than a clay pipe.

The way Schwartz testifies sounds a lot to me like he had no idea if Pipeman was an accomplice or not ...

Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.

That would seem to weaken the argument that Leman street's doubts over the truth of Schwartz's story, are just doubts over his interpretations.

No, the statement "If Schwartz is to be believed ..." is in the context of a report. That statement is to direct the reader to the particular witness about to be considered (Schwartz) and indicating the inferences one would make if that witness statement is looked at as true. Witnesses can be wrong, or misleading, etc, so in the report the reader is directed to consider things from the point of view that Schwartz's information is accurate. This is then followed by the statement that the police report indicates that this option is not chosen randomly, but that it is founded upon the fact that the police report on Schwartz leaves no doubt that his statement should be viewed as true.

In short, his wording is simply a formal way of indicating "Consider the information from this witness as it has been verified by the police as reliable ...". What those statements are not doing is indicating that there is any reason to doubt that Schwartz witnessed what he claims to have witnessed.

As you say, witnesses can be wrong or misleading, so this argument is applicable to all of them. "If Cross is to be believed ...", "If Richardson is to be believed ...", "If Hutchinson is to be believed ...". Why does Schwartz alone gets this treatment, if the police report leaves no doubt that his statement should be viewed as true?

On the basis that those like Abberline and the other higher ups were all aware of the reports and findings of the investigation. They were informed about what those lower ranked police were doing, and would have received updates. The lower ranked, however, would be aware of their own activities, and of some of their colleagues, but they would not be spending time with all the reports and looking for the underlying patterns.

So did the lower ranked police possibly make a mistake, in releasing the prisoner? Working with less information, how could they know for sure if this man's story was true? One day his story is not wholly accepted, the next day it is, apparently owing to inquiries. So how does one inquire as to whether a man was chasing another man from the scene, or fleeing the scene in the same direction as another man fleeing the scene?

Abberline interviewed Schwartz and took his statement personally. As you say, he wouldn't have interviewed every witness but those deemed very important he would want to be involved. Schwartz was considered a potentially very important witness as shown by the fact that Abberline got involved. Hardly surprising, Schwartz is claiming to have potentially seen the murderer. By this time, the police had already erased the GSG, which was viewed as a big mistake, so mishandling of such an important witness would not go down well. Abberline's involvement would be, in part, to take primary responsibility for this information to try and ensure it too is not lost.

Right, so Abberline's involvement and Schwartz's apparent non involvement in the inquest, seems to be a huge enigma.

What difference would it make if Abberline knew about Fanny Mortimer? She was outside for a brief period and not at the time of the incident. Her information has little to add, particularly if she is unsure of the time. I can't recall if there is any official statement by FM to the police, though. We do know the police canvassed house to house at the time, when Packer originally said he saw nothing and nobody of interest, and so would have spoken to her then. Either she had nothing to say (or was reluctant to speak to the police) or she came across as unreliable somehow. She wasn't called to the inquest.

Yet if she had been called, I dare say she could have cleared up a few issues. For example, you're claiming to know that she was outside for a brief period, but that is not what she is quoted as saying. Evidently, Fanny Mortimer is not to be believed.

It is an exact description of what we know the police view of Schwartz's statement was. They believed he witnessed the events, they did not believe he interpreted the relationship between B.S. and Pipeman correctly nor did they believe Lipski was shouted to Pipeman but rather at Schwartz. He was not wholly believed.

In short, the statement describes what we know, and as such it is a description of the known evidence.

This does not explain the transition we see in the Star, across the Monday and Tuesday editions. On Monday, Schwartz was believed, they are acting on his statement, two men have been arrested, and the statement of one of them is not wholly believed. The next day, both men have evidently been released, doubts have now been transferred to Schwartz, and they are no longer acting on his statement. This transition would not be evident if it were merely an issue of interpretation, as this issue is owing to Abberline's interviewing of Schwartz, which occurred on the Sunday.

They didn't give up on Schwartz. They canvassed the area looking for all the Lipski families, for example. However, if Schwartz had nothing more to add to his statement, and could recall no further details, then if Pipeman was identified and cleared there was little more they could do unless pipeman was able to provide a better description of B.S. If not, then the investigation of the leads produced by Schwartz had been completed or were ongoing (looking for Lipski). They didn't "give up" on his statement, they investigated it and it unfortunately didn't lead to an arrest.

Only Pipeman could have possibly been named Lipski, as we know Schwartz's name, and Pipeman was the only other man on the street (other than BS, who used the word). So if Pipeman was identified and cleared, it would seem illogical to still be looking for a man named Lipski.

Well, it's popular because we know for a fact that Abberline did disagree with Schwartz's interpretation. We also know the police still looked for Lipski's because while they thought Schwartz probably got it wrong, they continued to investigate as he told it too. That's good police work.

Well, it should not be popular, regardless of Abberline's opinion. If Lipski was directed at Pipeman, as suggested by Schwartz, then at least we have a vaguely plausible reason for Pipeman to have followed Schwartz - he was seeing off the 'intruding Jew' (this is more or less what we see in the Star report). Having watched the incident while causally lighting his pipe, why would Pipeman then run off like a startled rabbit, without so much as the prompt of 'Lipski!', pointed in his direction, to send him on his way? The popular belief that Pipeman fled, is a belief in a causeless effect.

Hmmm, the truth of which man's statement is not wholly accepted? The Hungarian's or the prisoner's?

"The truth of the man's statement..." is the relevant thread.

Yes, perhaps that's when Pipeman was identified, and it was made clear that Schwartz's believe that Pipeman was connected to B.S. was incorrect. And if pipeman could provide no further details about B.S., then all they had was Schwartz's description of B.S., and there was little more they could do. Doesn't mean they disbelieved Schwartz, only that having now tracked down Pipeman and that leading nowhere, means they've gotten as far as they can.

- Jeff

The apparent discovery of Pipeman, and the apparently contradictory ongoing search for a possible Mr Lipski, has already been discussed, but I wonder if the police supposed there might have been another man on the street at the time, that Schwartz failed to mention (to them). Considering the differences in Pipeman and Knifeman's location, device in hand, and behaviour (flight vs aggression), I don't think that suggestion is far-fetched.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Pipeman identified himself to the police, we may presume that he was able to confirm an assault on a woman outside the club, but he was hardly likely to confirm Schwartz's initial belief, that Pipeman was an accomplice who chased him away!

That was his initial belief? So are the following quotes in the wrong chronological order?

Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.

... but just as he stepped from the kerb A SECOND MAN CAME OUT of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder.

Regarding the identification of Pipeman and what he may or may not have confirmed, I will post on that separately.

Pipeman's version of the story would then have cast doubt on the 'truth' according to Schwartz, and helped confirm Abberline's interpretation, that "Lipski" was directed at the obviously Jewish witness - Schwartz - while Pipeman had merely been a second unconnected witness, who had left the scene in the same direction.

If you believe this scenario to be the correct one, it must be puzzling why the police continued looking for a 'Mr Lipski'. Given that Israel Schwartz was a 'Mr Schwartz', and not a 'Mr Lipski', the only reason to look for a man named Lipski, is if it were supposed that Lipski was directed at Pipeman (who did not appear Jewish). So the logic seems crystal clear; if they are looking for a man named Lipski, weeks after the murder, they must also be looking for Pipeman. Yet as noted numerous times, Pipeman's description does not appear on the apprehensions sought list. So what gives? Were they really looking for Lipski/Pipeman, or just keeping up appearances?

If Pipeman didn't come forward, and neither he nor the assailant could be identified, the police would be left with only Schwartz's word for what he thought he had witnessed.

Same point again - if this is the correct scenario, the following should presumably have been included in the Police Gazette.

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

But it's not there. So, did the police identify Pipeman? I have my own opinion. What's yours?

Either way, it didn't result in Stride's alleged assailant being found.

Which any reasonable person must count as a strike against Schwartz. He placed himself and three others on the street, and included shouts, screams, and running, in his story. No one else reported seeing or hearing any of it. At some point we have to stop being nice to Israel Schwartz, and compare his claims to what the largest manhunt in history was able to come up with.

As for the Star, do you honestly believe the police would have given one of its reporters chapter and verse on their enquiries and what progress they were making, if any?

If you can quote me suggesting as such, then you have your answer.

The best Star man could expect was a brief statement to fob them off, which would then be fleshed out for the paper by reading between the lines.

Star man: "Any update on the assault on the murdered woman, witnessed by the Hungarian?"

Police: "No. Our enquiries are ongoing." [In other words, bugger off and let us do our job. This is a murder enquiry.]

Questions would be designed so any answer could be given more meat and meaning than it had in reality. So this one could have been interpreted as the police not getting anywhere yet, either with the story itself or with anyone thus far arrested on the strength of it.

It's like asking a celebrity if it's true she is having a baby, and when she says "No!", the headline reads: 'Miss X denies pregnancy rumours'.

Love,

Caz
X

Exactly how much communication went on between the police and Star is unknowable, but the police must have been curious about the 'running to earth', given that Schwartz's name and address had not been released, according to the Star at least.

There is a hint about how much the Star knew of Schwartz's police statement, in its editorial.

... the story of a man who is said to have seen the Berner-street tragedy, and declares that one man butchered and another man watched, is, we think, a priori incredible.

The man who watched, is Pipeman, not Knifeman. Pipeman was "on the opposite side of the street". Whereas Knifeman "came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off". The Star seemed to know at least the broad detail of the police statement.

[JeffHamm]

True - we rely on the Star's reporting for that.

And we know the police held lots of information back from the press, and of course still do. So the Star's reporting is based upon less information. Also, the Star is very vague about things, and simply says that Schwartz is not wholly believed, it doesn't say he was entirely dismissed. That wording is entirely consistent with what we do know about police thinking, which is that Schwartz was not wholly believed - they thought he got the Lipski thing wrong and so they were not convinced that Pipeman was involved as an accomplice the way Schwartz testifies. We know that's police thinking about Schwartz's statement, and that is entirely consistent with what the Star reports - he wasn't wholly believed, but neither was he wholly dismissed. There's no conflict, therefore, that requires any further explanation.

That still leaves us to ponder Swanson's wording. Do you suppose he had good reason for explicitly expressing faith in Schwartz's statement? I would have thought that "if Schwartz is to be believed", there would be no reason to mention it.

No, the statement "If Schwartz is to be believed ..." is in the context of a report. That statement is to direct the reader to the particular witness about to be considered (Schwartz) and indicating the inferences one would make if that witness statement is looked at as true. Witnesses can be wrong, or misleading, etc, so in the report the reader is directed to consider things from the point of view that Schwartz's information is accurate. This is then followed by the statement that the police report indicates that this option is not chosen randomly, but that it is founded upon the fact that the police report on Schwartz leaves no doubt that his statement should be viewed as true.

In short, his wording is simply a formal way of indicating "Consider the information from this witness as it has been verified by the police as reliable ...". What those statements are not doing is indicating that there is any reason to doubt that Schwartz witnessed what he claims to have witnessed.

If the report consisted primarily of Abberline's interview notes, and perhaps not anything originating from lower ranked police, then on what basis can we say that it was written by those who were 'fully informed', and thus in the best position to form an opinion?

On the basis that those like Abberline and the other higher ups were all aware of the reports and findings of the investigation. They were informed about what those lower ranked police were doing, and would have received updates. The lower ranked, however, would be aware of their own activities, and of some of their colleagues, but they would not be spending time with all the reports and looking for the underlying patterns.

There may be another reference to the timing of Schwartz's police station visit, but the Star tells us it was late on the Sunday afternoon. The reference to Leman street's doubts was owing to a visit to that station on the Tuesday morning. So what information was Leman working with by that time?

* A statement from Schwartz taken by someone like the duty inspector. Presumably Abberline did not speak to every Tom, Dick and Harry who turned up to the station with a story to tell.

Abberline interviewed Schwartz and took his statement personally. As you say, he wouldn't have interviewed every witness but those deemed very important he would want to be involved. Schwartz was considered a potentially very important witness as shown by the fact that Abberline got involved. Hardly surprising, Schwartz is claiming to have potentially seen the murderer. By this time, the police had already erased the GSG, which was viewed as a big mistake, so mishandling of such an important witness would not go down well. Abberline's involvement would be, in part, to take primary responsibility for this information to try and ensure it too is not lost.

* Abberline's interview notes, and any related verbal communication with officers there
* The statements of two men we are told were arrested on the basis of Schwartz's statement
* The Star's own report plus any resulting communication with that paper
* Any relevant witness statements. Was Abberline even aware of witnesses like Fanny Mortimer, at the time he interviewed Schwartz?

What difference would it make if Abberline knew about Fanny Mortimer? She was outside for a brief period and not at the time of the incident. Her information has little to add, particularly if she is unsure of the time. I can't recall if there is any official statement by FM to the police, though. We do know the police canvassed house to house at the time, when Packer originally said he saw nothing and nobody of interest, and so would have spoken to her then. Either she had nothing to say (or was reluctant to speak to the police) or she came across as unreliable somehow. She wasn't called to the inquest.

Somehow I think Tuesday morning beats late Sunday afternoon.



This notion that the doubts expressed about Schwartz were merely a matter of Schwartz's interpretations, rather than the authenticity of his story, seems to be a very popular ... umm, interpretation. But how well does it explain the evidence?

It is an exact description of what we know the police view of Schwartz's statement was. They believed he witnessed the events, they did not believe he interpreted the relationship between B.S. and Pipeman correctly nor did they believe Lipski was shouted to Pipeman but rather at Schwartz. He was not wholly believed.

In short, the statement describes what we know, and as such it is a description of the known evidence.

Firstly, why on earth would Leman street be giving up on Schwartz, simply because he couldn't say for sure who 'Lipski' was shouted at, or whether the two men were together or known to each other? That makes no sense at all. How do these issues even justify being conceptualised as matters of interpretation? Was the second man chasing him, or fleeing? He claimed not to know, rather than having a firm opinion that someone disagreed with.

They didn't give up on Schwartz. They canvassed the area looking for all the Lipski families, for example. However, if Schwartz had nothing more to add to his statement, and could recall no further details, then if Pipeman was identified and cleared there was little more they could do unless pipeman was able to provide a better description of B.S. If not, then the investigation of the leads produced by Schwartz had been completed or were ongoing (looking for Lipski). They didn't "give up" on his statement, they investigated it and it unfortunately didn't lead to an arrest.

On the subject of disagreeing with Schwartz's 'interpretations' (also very popular),

Well, it's popular because we know for a fact that Abberline did disagree with Schwartz's interpretation. We also know the police still looked for Lipski's because while they thought Schwartz probably got it wrong, they continued to investigate as he told it too. That's good police work.

let's consider this in relation to a point you made above, regarding "those police (the report) who are in the best position to form an opinion". If Schwartz is to be believed, then the situation is; Schwartz was there, you weren't there, I wasn't there - none of us were - and neither were any of the police. In that case, who was in the best position to form an opinion on these points? It amuses me that so many Schwartz believers are in the habit of 'correcting' Schwartz, where they feel he got it wrong.

I'm not correcting Schwartz, I'm restating Abberline's belief's. I have no idea if Schwartz got it right or wrong, I do know the police believed he may have misinterpreted things, so when I read reports about Schwartz not being wholly believed I know that's true because the police reports do express exactly where they think Schwartz misinterpreted events. I also know the police spent a great deal of time and effort to investigate Schwartz's statement as he actually gave it and they looked for all the Lipski families. That indicates he was not entirely dismissed, even with regards to the bits the police thought might be misinterpretations.

Secondly, and this is something that everyone seems to be missing; the "it was just doubts over interpretation" theory, does not account for Leman street's rather obvious change of mind. The Star, Oct 1, tells us:

The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

Hmmm, the truth of which man's statement is not wholly accepted? The Hungarian's or the prisoner's?

At this stage, Schwartz's statement was being taken seriously by Leman street. Not so by the following morning (or at least, not until "additional facts" are obtained). Schwartz was believed until he wasn't. If this were just down to issues of interpretation, this change of attitude would not be apparent. These questions of interpretation are owing to Abberline, and his interview with Schwartz occurred before the Star man had even run Schwartz to earth.

Clearly something of great significance occurred between the Star Oct 1 and 2 editions, which had nothing to do with doubts over Schwartz's 'interpretation' of the intended recipient of 'Lipski!'.

Yes, perhaps that's when Pipeman was identified, and it was made clear that Schwartz's believe that Pipeman was connected to B.S. was incorrect. And if pipeman could provide no further details about B.S., then all they had was Schwartz's description of B.S., and there was little more they could do. Doesn't mean they disbelieved Schwartz, only that having now tracked down Pipeman and that leading nowhere, means they've gotten as far as they can.

- Jeff

[caz]

If Pipeman identified himself to the police, we may presume that he was able to confirm an assault on a woman outside the club, but he was hardly likely to confirm Schwartz's initial belief, that Pipeman was an accomplice who chased him away! Pipeman's version of the story would then have cast doubt on the 'truth' according to Schwartz, and helped confirm Abberline's interpretation, that "Lipski" was directed at the obviously Jewish witness - Schwartz - while Pipeman had merely been a second unconnected witness, who had left the scene in the same direction.

If Pipeman didn't come forward, and neither he nor the assailant could be identified, the police would be left with only Schwartz's word for what he thought he had witnessed.

Either way, it didn't result in Stride's alleged assailant being found.

As for the Star, do you honestly believe the police would have given one of its reporters chapter and verse on their enquiries and what progress they were making, if any? The best Star man could expect was a brief statement to fob them off, which would then be fleshed out for the paper by reading between the lines.

Star man: "Any update on the assault on the murdered woman, witnessed by the Hungarian?"

Police: "No. Our enquiries are ongoing." [In other words, bugger off and let us do our job. This is a murder enquiry.]

Questions would be designed so any answer could be given more meat and meaning than it had in reality. So this one could have been interpreted as the police not getting anywhere yet, either with the story itself or with anyone thus far arrested on the strength of it.

It's like asking a celebrity if it's true she is having a baby, and when she says "No!", the headline reads: 'Miss X denies pregnancy rumours'.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But what are these "doubts" referring to exactly? Is the implication that they believed Schwartz to be lying or are they essentially saying we don't know for certain whether he witnessed the beginning of Stride's murder or just a common street hassle? Or is that statement simply saying because of the language barrier and problems with interpretation we simply don't know what the hell he saw?

c.d.

I would suggest, exactly what I'm talking about in #2900. If the police knew who Pipeman was, this should have removed any reason to doubt the truth of Schwartz's story (had there been any at that point). Yet there is evidence it had exactly the opposite effect.

How could that be? Well this is something I was thinking about a lot, several months back. The answer I eventually came to was rather interesting - at least I think so. Obviously the question came first though, and the question only became evident by first doubting the truth of Schwartz's story.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It doesn't say there were doubts being held by lower ranked police.

True - we rely on the Star's reporting for that. That still leaves us to ponder Swanson's wording. Do you suppose he had good reason for explicitly expressing faith in Schwartz's statement? I would have thought that "if Schwartz is to be believed", there would be no reason to mention it.

Rather, it points out that the report, which would be based upon the most information available (direct interview with Schwartz, etc), indicates there is no doubt. While those with less information might hold doubts, the opinions of those not fully informed are immaterial with regards to the statement. The statement explicitly says there are no doubts held by those police (the report) who are in the best position to form an opinion.

If the report consisted primarily of Abberline's interview notes, and perhaps not anything originating from lower ranked police, then on what basis can we say that it was written by those who were 'fully informed', and thus in the best position to form an opinion? There may be another reference to the timing of Schwartz's police station visit, but the Star tells us it was late on the Sunday afternoon. The reference to Leman street's doubts was owing to a visit to that station on the Tuesday morning. So what information was Leman working with by that time?

* A statement from Schwartz taken by someone like the duty inspector. Presumably Abberline did not speak to every Tom, Dick and Harry who turned up to the station with a story to tell.
* Abberline's interview notes, and any related verbal communication with officers there
* The statements of two men we are told were arrested on the basis of Schwartz's statement
* The Star's own report plus any resulting communication with that paper
* Any relevant witness statements. Was Abberline even aware of witnesses like Fanny Mortimer, at the time he interviewed Schwartz?

Somehow I think Tuesday morning beats late Sunday afternoon.

Sure, others who have less information to work with might have doubts, but this statement isn't evidence of those doubts actually existing. The press do report there were concerns about some of Schwartz's statement, but we know what those were (mostly around Schwartz's interpretation of who Lipski was shouted at, and the relationship between B.S. and Pipeman) while it seems likely the press did not because they were less informed about police thinking than the writer of the police reports to HO.

- Jeff

This notion that the doubts expressed about Schwartz were merely a matter of Schwartz's interpretations, rather than the authenticity of his story, seems to be a very popular ... umm, interpretation. But how well does it explain the evidence?

Firstly, why on earth would Leman street be giving up on Schwartz, simply because he couldn't say for sure who 'Lipski' was shouted at, or whether the two men were together or known to each other? That makes no sense at all. How do these issues even justify being conceptualised as matters of interpretation? Was the second man chasing him, or fleeing? He claimed not to know, rather than having a firm opinion that someone disagreed with.

On the subject of disagreeing with Schwartz's 'interpretations' (also very popular), let's consider this in relation to a point you made above, regarding "those police (the report) who are in the best position to form an opinion". If Schwartz is to be believed, then the situation is; Schwartz was there, you weren't there, I wasn't there - none of us were - and neither were any of the police. In that case, who was in the best position to form an opinion on these points? It amuses me that so many Schwartz believers are in the habit of 'correcting' Schwartz, where they feel he got it wrong.

Secondly, and this is something that everyone seems to be missing; the "it was just doubts over interpretation" theory, does not account for Leman street's rather obvious change of mind. The Star, Oct 1, tells us:

The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

At this stage, Schwartz's statement was being taken seriously by Leman street. Not so by the following morning (or at least, not until "additional facts" are obtained). Schwartz was believed until he wasn't. If this were just down to issues of interpretation, this change of attitude would not be apparent. These questions of interpretation are owing to Abberline, and his interview with Schwartz occurred before the Star man had even run Schwartz to earth.

Clearly something of great significance occurred between the Star Oct 1 and 2 editions, which had nothing to do with doubts over Schwartz's 'interpretation' of the intended recipient of 'Lipski!'.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There are couple of points in the Star's Oct 2 reporting of the police's efforts, that are worth noting.

All their efforts to get a tangible clue on which to work have been futile. Inquiry at the Bishops-gate and Leman-street police-stations this morning developed the fact that there was NO CLUE WHATEVER.
The threads that had been taken up on the possible chance of their leading to something tangible have been laid down again. It is but fair to say that the police have clutched eagerly at every straw that promised to help them out, but there is nothing left to work on. People have come forward by scores to furnish the description of a man they had seen with some woman near the scene, and not a great while before the commission of one or the other of SUNDAY MORNING'S CRIMES, but no two of the descriptions are alike, and none of the accompanying information has thus far been able to bear investigation. In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts. If every man should be arrested who was known to have been seen in company with an abandoned woman in that locality on last Saturday night, the police-stations would not hold them. There are many people in that district who volunteer information to the police on the principle of securing lenient treatment for their own offences, and there are others who turn in descriptions on the chance of coming near enough the mark to claim a portion of the reward if the man should be caught, just as one buys a ticket in a lottery. Even where such information is given in good faith, it can rarely be looked upon in the light of a clue.

As both double event crimes are being referred to, we could reasonably suppose that no two of the descriptions being alike, would include the following.

At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner-street - A MAN, age about 30, height 5 ft. 5 in., complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

At 1.35 a.m., 30th September, with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date - A MAN, age 30, height 5 ft. 7 or 8 in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

The other obvious point being that none of the stories of the numerous people who had come forward, claiming to see a man and woman near either scene and prior to the crime, have stood up to subsequent investigation. This is an important point, because it suggests that more than one of these reports from the public were acted on, implying that they were initially taken seriously. This of course includes 'the Hungarian'.

[c.d.]

But what are these "doubts" referring to exactly? Is the implication that they believed Schwartz to be lying or are they essentially saying we don't know for certain whether he witnessed the beginning of Stride's murder or just a common street hassle? Or is that statement simply saying because of the language barrier and problems with interpretation we simply don't know what the hell he saw?

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

No, it doesn't say that. It only says that there are no doubts arising from the police report of his statement, which was largely due to Abberline. It says nothing about the opinions of lower ranked police, for example the police who described Schwartz as appearing to be in the theatrical line. Nor does it say anything about opinions outside of the police force.

If there were no doubts at all, then Swanson's reason for beginning that sentence with "If Schwartz is to be believed ...", is inexplicable. Unless perhaps, he supposed that someone might read his summary of Schwartz's tale, and think it far-fetched.

It doesn't say there were doubts being held by lower ranked police. Rather, it points out that the report, which would be based upon the most information available (direct interview with Schwartz, etc), indicates there is no doubt. While those with less information might hold doubts, the opinions of those not fully informed are immaterial with regards to the statement. The statement explicitly says there are no doubts held by those police (the report) who are in the best position to form an opinion.

Sure, others who have less information to work with might have doubts, but this statement isn't evidence of those doubts actually existing. The press do report there were concerns about some of Schwartz's statement, but we know what those were (mostly around Schwartz's interpretation of who Lipski was shouted at, and the relationship between B.S. and Pipeman) while it seems likely the press did not because they were less informed about police thinking than the writer of the police reports to HO.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Pipeman is not included the Police Gazette's Oct 19 issue, regarding apprehensions sought for murder. To have cleared Pipeman as having no involvement in the Berner street crime, I think it reasonable to suppose that Pipeman was identified, questioned, and if not immediately, soon cleared. Assuming this to be true, that would seem to validate Schwartz's story. Yet the Star's reporting suggests otherwise. According to that report, Leman street had developed severe doubts about Schwartz, no later than the Tuesday morning. Considering that Schwartz did not go to the police until late on the Sunday afternoon, the gap between the two arrests mentioned by the Star, and Schwartz's apparent loss of credibility, seems to be in the region of 24 hours, or less. Furthermore, the reference to "additional facts" being the requirement for further investigation based on Schwartz's statement, seems to suggest that the statements and/or information obtained on one or both of the men arrested, were the sole source of Leman street's doubts.

Is this anomaly worthy of explanation?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But that statement explicitly says there are no doubts, and so in no way suggests doubts do in fact exist?

- Jeff

No, it doesn't say that. It only says that there are no doubts arising from the police report of his statement, which was largely due to Abberline. It says nothing about the opinions of lower ranked police, for example the police who described Schwartz as appearing to be in the theatrical line. Nor does it say anything about opinions outside of the police force.

If there were no doubts at all, then Swanson's reason for beginning that sentence with "If Schwartz is to be believed ...", is inexplicable. Unless perhaps, he supposed that someone might read his summary of Schwartz's tale, and think it far-fetched.