If Schwartz Lied ...

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,
Thank you for your welcome.

Here is a link to a map of Smith's beat: https://www.casebook.org/police_offi...ith.html#smith

I haven't read any inquest evidence where Lamb states what time he arrived at the yard. He said at the inquest: "Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting" As you can see from the map, Smith must have been walking up Christian St at that time and been just a little behind Lamb. Given that Lamb knew he was about to be involved in a murder case he would surely have checked the Tobacconist clock as he passed.

Do you see a problem with the reason for Stride being in the yard being that she was still in the company of, and waiting for, Parcelman?

Cheers, George

[drstrange169]

Lamb's timings vary depending on which paper you read.

Since we know he was with the fixed point policeman, we know it was after 1a.m. We also know Lamb did not look at the look on the corner clock because when referring to the time, he used the phrase, "as near as I could tell".

[GBinOz]

Lamb's timings vary depending on which paper you read.

Since we know he was with the fixed point policeman, we know it was after 1a.m. We also know Lamb did not look at the look on the corner clock because when referring to the time, he used the phrase, "as near as I could tell".

Hi drstrange,

From the inquest:

Detective-Inspector Reid: How long before had you passed this place?
Witness: I am not on the Berner-street beat, but I passed the end of the street in Commercial-road six or seven minutes before.
[Coroner] When you were found what direction were you going in? - I was coming towards Berner-street. A constable named Smith was on the Berner-street beat. He did not accompany me, but the constable who was on fixed-point duty between Grove-street and Christian-street in Commercial-road. Constables at fixed-points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London.

It seems to me that Lamb is indicating a time before one o'clock because the fixed point Constable had not yet left duty. I am having a little difficulty in thinking of a reason why he wouldn't have glanced at the clock.

Cheers, George

[drstrange169]

Hello George,

The "six or seven minutes before" refers to when he passed Berner St heading to the fixed point station, before the alarm was raised. Again, he can't pin the time down, only guess which means he did not look at Harris clock then, either.

[GBinOz]

Here we have the evolution of Diemshitz's recollection:

Times and Irish Times, 1 Oct: It was Louis Diemsschütz, the steward of the club who found the body. Diemsschütz, who is a traveller in cheap jewelry, had spent the day at Westow-hill, near the Crystal Palace, on business, and had driven home at his usual hour, reaching Berner-street at 1 o'clock.

Daily News 1 Oct: I am a traveler in the common jewellery trade, working for myself alone. I have been steward of this club for six or seven years, and I live on the premises. It has been my habit for some time past to go on Saturdays to Westow Hill, Crystal Palace, where there is a market at which I sell my wares. This (Sunday) morning I got back from Westow market as usual about one o'clock

The Echo 1 Oct: THE STEWARD REPEATS HIS STORY.
There are a pair of iron-studded and iron-capped gates at the entrance to the yard, in which are one or two cottage residences, besides stables. These on Sunday morning, at one o'clock, were open- as is usually the case during the night. The steward of the International and Educational Club reached the gate just as the clock struck one. "It was very dark," he said.

The next day at the inquest he is using the phrase "exactly" at one for when he turned into Berner St and citing the tobacconist clock as his reference.

Might I suggest there there is no conspiracy theory required to assume that a man who had a very long day and was tired and possibly drowsy may have embraced the idea that the clock strike that he heard was indicating his "USUAL" time of return when in fact he was a little early that night and the clock was striking 12:45.

Furthermore, if we recalibrate Fanny's times to accord with Smith's time, we find she is hearing Diemshitz's cart pass at a little after 12:45.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hello George,

The "six or seven minutes before" refers to when he passed Berner St heading to the fixed point station, before the alarm was raised. Again, he can't pin the time down, only guess which means he did not look at Harris clock then, either.

Hi drstrange,

I would interpret the six or seven minutes differently. I feel that he would have looked at the Harris clock but since he had moved down Commercial Road to the fixed point station, and after that been alerted to the murder, he was only estimating the time since he had looked at the Harris clock. A difference of one minute in an estimate of a recent action is reasonable I would think? Smith says he was at the Harris clock corner at 1 o'clock and he didn't see Lamb so Lamb would have been several minutes in front of him. If Lamb wasn't using the Harris clock how would he have any idea of the time? How would the fixed point Constable know when it was time to finish his shift at 1 o'clock?

So who has more credibility - two police officers who are aware that they are to be involved in an incident, one of which knows it is a murder, or a tired man on a cart who may have mistaken the chime of a clock for his "usual" time of return? I am inclined to put more faith in the former.

Cheers, George

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

So who has more credibility - two police officers who are aware that they are to be involved in an incident, one of which knows it is a murder, or a tired man on a cart who may have mistaken the chime of a clock for his "usual" time of return? I am inclined to put more faith in the former.

Cheers, George

Hi George, welcome to the boards.

Can you clarify what your saying here? I can't tell if your making a light hearted remark or are being serious. I noted in your first post that you have your own ideas, are you angling at something involving the police?

[drstrange169]

A few points:

The Harris's clock was in the window of the shop, so Deimshitz would have been unlikely to have heard it strike, conformation would more likely be visual.

We have no idea where Mortimer got her timing from and we have no idea how her timings related to the tobacconists clock.

In fact, ditto the above to everybody's timings, that's the point. This was the Victorian East End, all timings are personal, mainly guesswork and therefore almost certainly individual guesswork.

The only early arrivers who gave exact timings by referencing a clock were, Diemshitz (by Harris's clock) and Dr. Blackwell (by his pocket watch). Again, we have no idea how those two timings related, in terms of sync, to each other.

Since Lamb was asked what time he passed Berner St, if he had noted the time by Harris clock, he would have said so, the fact that he had to guess, indicates that he didn't. And why would he? Prior to the murder, Berner Street held no significance to him whatsoever, it wasn't even part of his beat.

As for Smith, I'm not aware of him ever been reported as claiming he saw the time on the Harris's clock.

Since both policemen are recorded as estimating the time whereas Deimshitz gave a very specific reference as to where and how he saw the time, I can''t see any reason for not taking his claim as the most legitimate.

Smith's timing guesses are problematical because Spooner does not mention seeing him pass by.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,
Thank you for your welcome.

Here is a link to a map of Smith's beat: https://www.casebook.org/police_offi...ith.html#smith

I haven't read any inquest evidence where Lamb states what time he arrived at the yard. He said at the inquest: "Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting" As you can see from the map, Smith must have been walking up Christian St at that time and been just a little behind Lamb. Given that Lamb knew he was about to be involved in a murder case he would surely have checked the Tobacconist clock as he passed.

Do you see a problem with the reason for Stride being in the yard being that she was still in the company of, and waiting for, Parcelman?

Cheers, George

You’ll have to explain that for me George as I don’t understand your point.

[GBinOz]

Hi George, welcome to the boards.

Can you clarify what your saying here? I can't tell if your making a light hearted remark or are being serious. I noted in your first post that you have your own ideas, are you angling at something involving the police?

Hi Al,
Thank you for your welcome.

No, I'm not angling for for any conspiracy involving the police, if that is what you mean. I'm just saying that, IMHO, Diemshitz was mistaken about his time of arrival at the yard. I have been trying to resolve the time confict with FM by presuming that her clock was fast but now I wonder if she was calculating backwards from 1 o'clock. I read somewhere were she told a reporter that Lewis (her spelling) told her that he discovered the body at 1 o'clock, but I can't for the life of me find that reference again. I find it a little strange that she would estimate 4 minutes for hearing the cart. I'd have said about 5 minutes if I were relating an estimate. I seems to me that if the actual times quoted by FM are ignored and time periods quoted by her are used starting with Smith's footfalls at between 12:30 and 12:35 then it all falls into place with no timing anomalies. Here is my timeline if we start with Smith seeing Parcelman and Stride:

12:30 - Smith sees Parcelman and Stride and is heard passing by FM.
12:31 - Parcelman and Stride cross into the yard just before FM arrives at her door.
12:41 - PM leaves door after locking up.
12:42 - BSM and Schwartz arrive at the yard and BSM pulls Stride from the yard into the street.
12:43 - Schwartz crosses the road and proceeds to Fairclough St.
12:44 - Pipeman emerges, frightens Schwartz, BSM calls out Lipski. BSM and Schwartz depart to the south.
12:45 - BSM kills Stride and is headed out of the gate when Parcelman returns from delivering his pamphlets, sees Stride on the ground and chases BSM. At the same time Diemshitz turns into Berner St.
12:46 - PM hears the cart pass.
12:47 - Diemshitz pulls into yard and horse shies.
12:48 to 12:53 - Diemshitz prods Stride with whip, climbs down from cart, lights match and discovers her body, alerts those in the club who emerge and light matches to observe the body for a minute or so.
12:54 - Club members depart the yard looking for police.
12:57 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard.
1:00 - Smith arrives at the Berner St/Commercial Road corner and observes Harris clock.
1:02 - Smith arrives at yard.
1:03 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor.
1:05 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell and then dresses and leaves for yard.
1:12 - Johnson arrives at yard.
1:16 - Blackwell arrives at yard.

Note that the last 3 times are according to Johnson and Blackwell and may not be synchronised with the Harris clock.

P.S. Can anyone tell how to stop the "Invalid server response - please try again" popup please?

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here we have the evolution of Diemshitz's recollection:

Times and Irish Times, 1 Oct: It was Louis Diemsschütz, the steward of the club who found the body. Diemsschütz, who is a traveller in cheap jewelry, had spent the day at Westow-hill, near the Crystal Palace, on business, and had driven home at his usual hour, reaching Berner-street at 1 o'clock.

Daily News 1 Oct: I am a traveler in the common jewellery trade, working for myself alone. I have been steward of this club for six or seven years, and I live on the premises. It has been my habit for some time past to go on Saturdays to Westow Hill, Crystal Palace, where there is a market at which I sell my wares. This (Sunday) morning I got back from Westow market as usual about one o'clock

The Echo 1 Oct: THE STEWARD REPEATS HIS STORY.
There are a pair of iron-studded and iron-capped gates at the entrance to the yard, in which are one or two cottage residences, besides stables. These on Sunday morning, at one o'clock, were open- as is usually the case during the night. The steward of the International and Educational Club reached the gate just as the clock struck one. "It was very dark," he said.

The next day at the inquest he is using the phrase "exactly" at one for when he turned into Berner St and citing the tobacconist clock as his reference.

Might I suggest there there is no conspiracy theory required to assume that a man who had a very long day and was tired and possibly drowsy may have embraced the idea that the clock strike that he heard was indicating his "USUAL" time of return when in fact he was a little early that night and the clock was striking 12:45.

Furthermore, if we recalibrate Fanny's times to accord with Smith's time, we find she is hearing Diemshitz's cart pass at a little after 12:45.

Cheers, George

As Dusty has said, a clock inside a shop window unlikely in the extreme to have been heard from the outside even by someone passing by on the pavement but Louis was on the road with the additional noise of his horses hooves and the cart. So Louis saw the clock and for me becomes the other fixed point in the evenings events along with Blackwell’s arrival.

I think that we’re just left with a choice on reliability between Smith and Mortimer and Smith is the more likely for me. We also have Morris Eagle saying that he first saw the about at around 1.00 just after Gilleman went dashing upstairs. We also have his wife confirming the time that he’d returned.

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

My proposition is that after Smith left Parcelman and Stride went to the yard so Parcelman could deliver the pamphlets wrapped in paper and Stride would have been waiting in the yard for him to return.

As far as the times quoted by Eagle and other club members, my problem is that I haven't found a direct reference to there being a clock in the club rooms - there probably was, but times quoted seem to be estimates based on how long it takes to go home and return and go upstairs for a while etc. Eagle said at the inquest "After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about twenty minutes to one", so he even has a fifteen minute buffer for the start of his estimate. These estimates are far below Smith's statements on my confidence list. Even if there was a clock in the club rooms the usual problem of syncronicity arises.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

One problem that we have is that we don’t know how FM came to her 12.45 time. We have no way of knowing if there was a clock or a watch in her house but as she went over to the yard and would undoubtedly have talked to others standing around it’s quite likely that someone told her that Diemschutz had discovered the body at 1.00. We don’t know what time she received this info but it might have been 1.15 or later. There would then have been a gap of time before she spoke to the Police so this would have meant that she was left to try and estimate a time that she’d heard Smith passing. This type of thinking back to recall a duration of time leaves the suggestion that she simply made a mistake entirely understandable IMO.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hello George.

It is critical that a benchmark timepiece be nominated to co-ordinate times. In this case the benchmark timepiece would be the clock in the premises of Harris Tobacconist on the eastern corner of Commercial Road and Berner St from which Diemshitz determined that it was “exactly” 1 o’clock when he turned into Berner St. Smith would have used this clock to determine his estimate of having seen Liz at 12:30 – 12:35.

Yes. 12:30 to 12:35 was estimated by subtracting 25 to 30 minutes from 1:00am. So if 1am was correct, then likely the earlier time range was too. Smith also seems to be implying that his last round prior to arriving at the murder scene, was in the normal range. Obviously the big question is; was Smith correct about reaching the top of Berner street at 1am? If not, then the earlier time estimate is probably also incorrect - garbage in, garbage out - as the saying goes.

At the inquest he said “I was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock” and noticed the commotion outside Dutfields yard. I cannot reasonably believe that Smith was standing outside the Tobacconist shop which had a clock in the window, and while viewing a potential incident, then consciously chose to ignore the clock and base his testimony on estimates.

Other papers have him saying something slightly different.

Times: At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. Does this mean he proceeded to Berner street at 1am, or got there at that time?

Morning Advertiser: I was in Berner-street at about 12.35. About one o’clock I saw a large crowd of people outside the gate of No. 40. Why not give an exact time, if he was more or less standing in front of a clock at this point. Was the clock actually visible at night time?

Lamb said that he was first alerted at a few minutes to one, and since he later stated that he did not possess a pocket watch, would have assuredly deduced that time from the same clock as he passed on his way to Dutfields yard.

Assuming that he glanced at it, and that it were clearly visible. He had just been alerted to a murder, so perhaps he forgot to look.

Johnson, who lived in a doctor’s premises and would have access to a clock, and been used to recording time as part of his profession, stated at the inquest “On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H”. This call from the Constable was preceded by Diemshitz travelling down Berner St, turning into the yard, prodding an object with his whip, alighting from his cart, lighting a match, discovering a body, alerting club members, ascertaining Stride was dead, running to and along Commercial Road to find police, running back with police, police running back and down Commercial Road to alert Johnson only a few minutes after Diemshitz had turned at 1 o’clock, unseen by Smith who is at that corner, into Berner St. There just isn’t enough time.

It does seem a stretch. However, this is how Johnston was quoted in the Times:

About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.

So still a stretch, but not inconceivable if Smith's timing is regarded as being out by several minutes. Although that is another stretch!

Without engaging in any conspiratorial theories whatsoever, I believe that it is not reasonable to deduce anything other than Diemshitz was, whether deliberately or unintentionally, inaccurate in his statement of the time that he discovered the body of Stride and that time should not be used as a benchmark. There is no synchronicity error here as Diemshitz and Smith were looking at the same clock so the error can only be that of perception or deception.

Around here, the bar for 'conspiracy theory' is set extremely low. By even suggesting the possibility of Diemschitz being deliberately inaccurate about his arrival time, you have easily cleared the bar - as I did.

If I base some observations on the Tobacconist Clock time, I would concur with Herlock’s first three dot points above (making FM’s clock about 10 minutes fast) except that I would have Parcelman and Liz taking the very short walk into Dutfield’s yard rather than Fairclough St. In another post it was suggested that Parcelman was carrying printed pamphlets for the club so he may have proceeded into the club to deliver said pamphlets, leaving Liz to wait for him just inside the gates out of the sight of FM in her doorway and anyone else in the street. You might also recall that BS reportedly pulled Liz out of the yard towards the street.

Arbeter Fraint was printed in the offices out the back of Dutfield's Yard.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There’s no way that it wouldn’t have been noted that this mysterious stranger had been seen twice by FM. This is very obviously an error that, yet again, you see mystery in. Until you find the newspaper report where she says that she’d seen him twice then we can dismiss it.

Very obviously an error? That's interesting, as yesterday you said:

Up, down, along…..

This does not mean that she saw him twice. The mystery Bag Man was obviously a person of interest to the police and Fanny would have realised this. If she’d seen him twice this would have been big news (why would this man have been loitering around the murder scene?) These are very obviously two versions of the same thing worded differently. How can you not see this?

Why did you suddenly change your mind? Was it because I pointed out this basic fact to you...?

Commercial Road was to Fanny's left, and the club was to her right. How can you not see this?

Am I recalling correctly but didn’t she say something like ‘he might have come from the Club?’

My God! You don't even know what you're arguing against!

Which would show that he hadn’t walked past her. Isn’t it more likely that she simply meant that as Goldstein was obviously Jewish, and had looked up at the club, then he might have been a member?

The following makes a lot of sense to me...

I’ve never been good on directions but when we look at Smith’s Inquest testimony he does mention Backchurch Lane before Commercial Road.

Goldstein passed once.

You're still not familiar with the quotes, so you're not in a position to argue this.